From no spark to weak spark

[Roy Warren]

Installed the new distributor. Engine still will not crank.

Did the sparkie test will old plug, 3/16 gap. Spark is weak and will not jump. Jumps over to the side. Is blue but has no authority.

Roy

 

[Bruce (VA)]

It is important for you to tell us if your tractor has a 6 volt or 12 volt electrical system & if the distributor is on the front of the engine or on the side. The troubleshooting is different based upon the configuration of your engine.

"Engine still will not crank." That means different things to different people. Does the engine turn over ("crank") when you press the starter button? If so, I think it would be more precise to say "engine will not start".
50 Tips

 

[Dell (WA)]

so Roy.......what part of jumping the 3/16" gap don't you understand? jumping to the side is NOT jumping the gap. Even yer tester needs SHARP square edges. ......respectfully, Dell

 

[Roy Warren]

Sorry Bruce. This was more of a follow up on my post of a couple of days ago, I gave all the info at that time. It's on page 3 by now, so I guess you didn't see it.

Roy

 

[Dell (WA)]

Roy......all us "guessers" have CRS and it is up to you the guessee to supply the pertinent info everytime. ......respectfully, Dell who flunked mind reading, just ask my ex-wife

 

[Roy Warren]

Dell,
I appreciate your reply, but what you said does absolutely nothing to help me with my problem.

The point is the spark is so weak, it can't jump the 3/16" gap. I thought maybe when you heard this you could tell me what I could do to make it jump.

 

[Roy Warren]

Dell,

You responded to my original post twice, so I don't think I'm asking you to be a mind reader.

Maybe you just replied without reading it.

Roy

 

[Dell (WA)]

Roy.......weak sparkies are caused by failing ignition system components. Discharged battery; BAD ignition switch; infamous ballast resistor is like a litebulb, it either works or it don't and you gitt NO sparkies attall; BAD squarecan ignition coil which is not-testable except by 3/16" gap tester; burned ignition points, gap = 0.015".......HTH, Dell, with CRFT

 

[Dell (WA)]

Roy.......you don't understand do you? Us guesser ain't got the time to go searching back 3-pages to refresh our remembrances. Its YOU that gotta do it. ......respectfully, Dell, who flunked mindreading

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Let me explain a bit of posting protocol.

Every single time you start a new thread, begin it with "tractor is a 1950 8N, front distributor, 6v" or whatever it is.

I answer a lot of posts. I really do not remember every response & thinking that I or others should search back 3 pages to find out what is very pertinent info to your problem isn't very reasonable.

If you want to get a more precise answer to your questions, just let us know the pertinent info up front. There are plenty of folks here who are more than willing to help you get it running, but you do need to provide the basic info.

 

[old]

Roy you need to remember most of us who answer also answer 10-50 other posts a day so it is hard for us to remember each and every one we answer. I do remember yours is a side mount but not if it is 6 or 12 volts. Being a side mount you can try this and see if it helps. If it does then it will tell you better which way to look for your problem. Hot wire it and see if you get a good spark. If good when hot wired your problem is from the coil back to the battery in your ignition system. If still weak hot wired your problem is in the distributor and maybe dirty point or bad condenser

 

[Bill(Wis)]

Roy: You should learn to express yourself better in writing. You said: "Installed the new distributer. Engine still will not crank". Now, many if not most would think that "engine will not crank" means that the engine will not turn over at all. In other words, "it's stuck". Somehow, it was determined that what you really meant was that the engine would crank but it would not run. Then you said: "Spark is weak and will not jump". Followed by: "It jumps", etc. Roy, when it comes to diagnosing, prognosing, and determining the problems of N's, you are in the presence of greatness. The regulars on this forum are the best there is. You have to get better at explaining just exactly what is happening.

 

[Roy Warren]

Before I made my first post, I read every post here for 3 or 4 weeks. I went through the archives and read anything that had to do with my problem.

After I still couldn't get my tractor running, I decided to make my own post and ask you guys to help me.

Yes, I know all the rules, I've read enough post and read enough reminders to others, so I'm very familiar with how to post. On my first post I gave all the details which you require.

This will be my last post here. Instead of a place where someone can come and get help with their problem, I find a clique that wants to act like they're the experts, and you are a dumb newbie. You played this little game with me at the beginning of this post, as I have seen you do to a lot of others.

I know that my tractor doesn't have a ballast resistor. I spent two years rebuilding it and I've read all the post.

If I told my wife to go out and crank the car, I wouldn't expect her to just set there cranking on it. I would mean to start it up.

I pretty sure that if I replied to one of your post, I would remember it two days later.

Before I say goodbye, let me leave you with a few comments of my own:

Who came up the the 3/16" gapped plug as a test for spark? On my last post I said that when I did this the spark jumped to the side, instead of across the 3/16" gap. That's normal. Electricity will seek the path of least resistance. The post on the side is only 1/8" away. Why would it want to jump 3/16"?

But how can this test prove anything? Gasoline, especially vapourized gasoline is very volitile. When compressed into a small cylinder, the least spark will make it explode. It won't matter if it jumps .025" or 3/16", whether it's blue or orange. It's going to blow.

Another myth. If I leave my gas cut-off on it will let gas run down into my crankcase and blow/ruin my engine.

On my tractor, the floats in the carburator control the amount of gas that comes down the line. Just like the float in the back of your commode. When it get's full it shuts off the flow.

And just how does this gas get from the carburator to the oil pan? As far as I know, there are no lines running between the two.

Goodbye all. I'll see if I can find someone to help me that really wants too, and enjoys seeing old tractors run and help me for the pure pleasure of it.

In the mean time, be nicer to the newbies. You may be all they've got.

Roy Warren,
Your self appointed MythBuster

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 16:05:58 06/05/09) Before I made my first post, I read every post here for 3 or 4 weeks. I went through the archives and read anything that had to do with my problem.

After I still couldn't get my tractor running, I decided to make my own post and ask you guys to help me.

Yes, I know all the rules, I've read enough post and read enough reminders to others, so I'm very familiar with how to post. On my first post I gave all the details which you require.

This will be my last post here. Instead of a place where someone can come and get help with their problem, I find a clique that wants to act like they're the experts, and you are a dumb newbie. You played this little game with me at the beginning of this post, as I have seen you do to a lot of others.

I know that my tractor doesn't have a ballast resistor. I spent two years rebuilding it and I've read all the post.

If I told my wife to go out and crank the car, I wouldn't expect her to just set there cranking on it. I would mean to start it up.

I pretty sure that if I replied to one of your post, I would remember it two days later.

Before I say goodbye, let me leave you with a few comments of my own:

Who came up the the 3/16" gapped plug as a test for spark? On my last post I said that when I did this the spark jumped to the side, instead of across the 3/16" gap. That's normal. Electricity will seek the path of least resistance. The post on the side is only 1/8" away. Why would it want to jump 3/16"?

But how can this test prove anything? Gasoline, especially vapourized gasoline is very volitile. When compressed into a small cylinder, the least spark will make it explode. It won't matter if it jumps .025" or 3/16", whether it's blue or orange. It's going to blow.

Another myth. If I leave my gas cut-off on it will let gas run down into my crankcase and blow/ruin my engine.

On my tractor, the floats in the carburator control the amount of gas that comes down the line. Just like the float in the back of your commode. When it get's full it shuts off the flow.

And just how does this gas get from the carburator to the oil pan? As far as I know, there are no lines running between the two.

Goodbye all. I'll see if I can find someone to help me that really wants too, and enjoys seeing old tractors run and help me for the pure pleasure of it.

In the mean time, be nicer to the newbies. You may be all they've got.

Roy Warren,
Your self appointed MythBuster

I'm sorry to see you feel like that Roy.

All of these guys are trying hard to help, but still need info to do that.

I'll even look up your first post for you.

[color=blue:c21d834418]First post in over a year, but have been reading all the post and archives for about 3 weeks, but still no luck.

1950 8N, 6 volt, side mount. After restoration tractor ran for a month or so, but never good. Ran rough, bogged down when load applied. Finally died.

Tried all the remedies I've read here:

Dell's sparkie test. No spark.
6V+ at points with points open.
6V+ at both coil post.
about 5V at top of coil with points open, 3V closed.
Jumped key switch. Still nothing.
New Battery and cables, New Carb, Drained old gas and replaced. New plug wires, coil, condensor, points
Tried 3 sets of points, rotors and condensors. 2 dist. caps.
Took #1 plug out, found TDC with finger, Rotor lines up with #1 wire. No mark on my flywheel.
Tried rotor pointing just before TDC and just after. Neither worked.
Points set at .015 and Autolite 437s at .025.
No play in dist. shaft.

Cranks okay but will not start.

I don't know what else to try, other than replacing the dist, but I hate to just throw more parts and money at it without knowing.

I would appreciate any help.

Roy[/color:c21d834418]

Cutting off your gas is no myth, these carbs are famous for sticking a float valve now and then.

I am religous about cutting mine off.

If it does stick, it will fill up the carb, overflow into the intake, and the valves, and run down into the crankcase, there is no where else for it to go, unless you don't run the breather hooked up.

I haven't played with Dell's tester, but then I know good spark when I see it.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

You have had three people explain to you why you need to tell us the specifics about your tractor. Some of us reply to easily a dozen or more posts a day on this & other boards. If you think that is too much to ask, well that's just TS.

You do seem to think you know quite a bit about these tractors given your "myth busters" comments. Lets start w/ the fuel in the crankcase "myth":

"We just had an 8N in the shop that the owner wanted us to fix the carb leak and replace the starter because the engine wouldn"t turn over. Turns out the base had more gas in it than oil and the bearings didn"t get enough lube from the diluted oil and seized the engine. I think of that tractor every time I park my tractors now and don"t forget to shut the fuel off.

(YT Post 10/10/07) "

Want to tell all of us dumb@sses how that gas got in the crankcase? Try reading tip # 9 at the link below.

Now to the "myth" about the 3/16" gap.....some folks think that checking for spark means pulling a plug wire off & looking for one. Well, it's the distance the spark jumps at the plug that gives you the info you want. It takes about 17kv to jump a 3/16" gap, (and about 22kv to jump ¼”) so that's why you need to use a spark plug. Or, a store bought plug checker. But, it sounds to me like you aren't looking at the gap on the plug if the spark is jumping sideways. I guess in the future, I will need to give detailed instructions on how to look at the dayum plug.

Given your superior mechanical ability to get me straight on these myths, why isn't your tractor running & all four of mine are?

Bottom line....by my count, you have had 12 different people trying to help you, 2 of whom are retired electrical engineers & others that I know to be very capable N mechanics. If you want to tell all 12 of us we're full of chit & go somewhere else, well just have a nice day.
50 Tips

 

[Dell (WA)]

Roy.......the impossible myth buster. I hope you feel better for venting, but yer still a newbie and show it.

I answer maybe 50 different questions a day. I don't remember every poster (you) and you should NOT expect me or ennyone else too either. I've been answering posts since 1997 with a good success rate too. I don't know everything, but I have CRS.

You ask......"Who came up the the 3/16" gapped plug as a test for spark? On my last post I said that when I did this the spark jumped to the side, instead of across the 3/16" gap. That's normal. Electricity will seek the path of least resistance. The post on the side is only 1/8" away. Why would it want to jump 3/16"?".......The N-Ford owners manual sez sparkies must jump 3/16-1/4" gap. (pg 56, sec 227.b) My eazy starting 6v 52-8N will jump a 3/8" gap. And I have the adjustable tester to prove it. And you have proved that them lazy sparkies will dribble down contaminated center insulator and NOT jump the gap.

You brag......"But how can this test prove anything? Gasoline, especially vapourized gasoline is very volitile. When compressed into a small cylinder, the least spark will make it explode".......yeah but it takes at least 17,000 volts to ignite COMPRESSED vaporized gasoline in yer 6:1 compression low rpm engine. Many high-rpm high compression race engines need 40,000 volts to sparkle.

You state......."On my tractor, the floats in the carburator control the amount of gas that comes down the line. Just like the float in the back of your commode. When it get's full it shuts off the flow?"........and what happens when yer float don't float??? toiletbowl continues to flow, don't it? Carb float valve stick OPEN, carb floats leak full of gasoline and NEVER float enuff to close the float valve

And you ask......"And just how does this gas get from the carburator to the oil pan? As far as I know, there are no lines running between the two".......its called piston ring end gap. And since yer gastank is gravity fed, it will ALWAYS seek "level" only this time, yer engine block, carb float valve, manifold, open intake valve are in the way and will slip past the ring-gap into yer engine crankcase. That is why we encourage turning OFF the under-the-tank valve at the end of the day. Have you ever heard of hydraulic lock??? It will break pistons and rods. .......respectfully, Dell who knows a little sumptin'

 

[old]

Roy sorry to say but on these old tractor the gas will in fact fill up the crank case with oil BTDT and have seen it happen on many many tractors and have seen a few with blown engines because of it. Ya the float needle is suppose to shut off the gas but on a gravity flow system some times it does some times it doesn't and all it takes if one little piece of dirt or rust and you have a crank case full of gas. As for some of your other stuff think about it how can we remember every thing when we answer so many posts. Since I have been on Y-T which has been about 10 years I have posted well over 20,000 times and believe me I can't remember every thing and I know Dell has posted around 14,000 plus. I my self have posted at least 5 times just today

 

[Joe T (CO)]

(quoted from post at 10:02:16 06/05/09) Installed the new distributor. Engine still will not crank.

Did the sparkie test will old plug, 3/16 gap. Spark is weak and will not jump. Jumps over to the side. Is blue but has no authority.

Roy

Roy,
Sent you a link to another place if you are interested.

Joe

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 23:12:37 06/05/09)

(quoted from post at 10:02:16 06/05/09) Installed the new distributor. Engine still will not crank.

Did the sparkie test will old plug, 3/16 gap. Spark is weak and will not jump. Jumps over to the side. Is blue but has no authority.

Roy

Roy,
Sent you a link to another place if you are interested.

Joe

Does that label you as a traitor?

 

[GA Dave]

After restoration tractor ran for a month or so, but never good. Ran rough, bogged down when load applied. Finally died.



Sounds like crossed plug wires to me. David................

 

[souNdguy]

Sorry to see you go.. but you have a few misconceptions about physical science.

1, air has resistance... when a spark jumps a plug gap in open air.. ie 14 psi, the resistance is less when that spark jumps that plug gap in a cyl with ? 90 psi...

also.. you say no lines between carb and crankcase.

yes there is.. it's called a manifold. your gas tank is higher than your crankcase.. gas can flow up the manifold then into the crankcase. that's not speculation.. that's fact... you can cuplicate it with a bucket and hose once you get a syphon started to simulate fuel flow.

soundguy

 

[Joe T (CO)]

(quoted from post at 20:27:01 06/05/09)

(quoted from post at 23:12:37 06/05/09)

(quoted from post at 10:02:16 06/05/09) Installed the new distributor. Engine still will not crank.

Did the sparkie test will old plug, 3/16 gap. Spark is weak and will not jump. Jumps over to the side. Is blue but has no authority.

Roy

Roy,
Sent you a link to another place if you are interested.

Joe

Does that label you as a traitor?

I would hope not, just wanted to let him know there are other sources for help.

You and I are both in the exact same line of work. In the old day's when I was green I had the same problem with IT folks, they wanted to talk down to me and treat me like I was stupid when I asked a question. My goal was to never be like that when I got to the point where I had gained knowledge. To me it is the same with tractors, as I learn I want to give back. I dont feel the need to treat the person asking for help like a moron.

I dont understand the mentality to talk down to someone while helping them. I think the guy had a right to come back with his comments. I dont buy the "I answer so many posts in a day I dont pay attention to who I said what to. I dont think two of the responders remember at one point they did not know anything about tractors either.

I have no problem with you Dunk, I enjoy your posts and get a kick out of most of them. My problem is with the superior attitude that says before I bow down to help, you must give me every bit of information or I will scold you. If you dare come back without doing what I said you will get another scolding. The one responder uses some sort of hillbilly Ebonics that makes him sound like an uneducated person, yet he barks of his superior knowledge and college degrees as he talks down to the person asking for help.

So no I dont feel I was being a traitor. I know I dont post here often, but I do read many of the posts. I have learned alot about tractors and sadly alot about people.

Thanks, Joe

 

[Dunk]

(quoted from post at 01:18:54 06/06/09)

(quoted from post at 20:27:01 06/05/09)

(quoted from post at 23:12:37 06/05/09)

(quoted from post at 10:02:16 06/05/09) Installed the new distributor. Engine still will not crank.

Did the sparkie test will old plug, 3/16 gap. Spark is weak and will not jump. Jumps over to the side. Is blue but has no authority.

Roy

Roy,
Sent you a link to another place if you are interested.

Joe

Does that label you as a traitor?

I would hope not, just wanted to let him know there are other sources for help.

You and I are both in the exact same line of work. In the old day's when I was green I had the same problem with IT folks, they wanted to talk down to me and treat me like I was stupid when I asked a question. My goal was to never be like that when I got to the point where I had gained knowledge. To me it is the same with tractors, as I learn I want to give back. I dont feel the need to treat the person asking for help like a moron.

I dont understand the mentality to talk down to someone while helping them. I think the guy had a right to come back with his comments. I dont buy the "I answer so many posts in a day I dont pay attention to who I said what to. I dont think two of the responders remember at one point they did not know anything about tractors either.

I have no problem with you Dunk, I enjoy your posts and get a kick out of most of them. My problem is with the superior attitude that says before I bow down to help, you must give me every bit of information or I will scold you. If you dare come back without doing what I said you will get another scolding. The one responder uses some sort of hillbilly Ebonics that makes him sound like an uneducated person, yet he barks of his superior knowledge and college degrees as he talks down to the person asking for help.

So no I dont feel I was being a traitor. I know I dont post here often, but I do read many of the posts. I have learned alot about tractors and sadly alot about people.

Thanks, Joe

WoW!!!!!!!

TWICE WoW!!!!!!!

I loved that post!!!!!!

I am going to have to read that a couple of more times.

Did I say MIXED feelings?!!?!?!?!?!!?

Did I say that half I was applauding, then the other half I wanted to retaliate?

Awesome post!!!

____

I reserve the right to retaliate when I git around to it.

 

[trucker40]

Alright I see where you are mad,leaving,and tractor still is not running.Been working on it 2 years,had it running but now it wont and weak spark.Well did you try bypassing the ignition switch?Do you know how?How certain are you that the spark plug wires are on right?Did you try setting the wires 180 degrees from where they are now?Do you know how?See if you dont reply about what you did I dont know how to help you because I cant read your mind either.
If you think number one wire is in the right place,you have your points set right,getting a spark,if its on the right stroke its going to fire if you have compression and gas.Did you put about a tablespoonful of gas in the cylinder and see if it fires?Does the engine ever try to fire?
Are you getting gas into the cylinders?
Forget what you think you know.Start over and look for whats wrong.A gas motor has to have compression,gas and fire at the right time and it will run.It wont run if it doesnt have fire at the right time,and that is the top of the compression stroke,the only time the plug fires the gas to make it run,on the exhaust stroke firing the plug doesnt work because the exhaust valve is open.It might backfire on the exhaust stroke,does it backfire,or misfire?If its just doing nothing then your points or something arent set right or maybe shorted out somehow or you arent getting any gas into the cylinders.Narrow it down,if a match will fire the cylinder with the plug out you are getting gas.The better you explain whats going on,the better any of us can help you.If you are having such a bad time do you think the valves are adjusted right?If they are set too tight the motor might not run because it doesnt have compression a necessary ingredient for a gas motor to run.

 

[Dunk]

Let me see if I can at least get an idea of my retaliation across.

All that was ever asked, in this new topic, was that he identify what tractor, exactly, that he wanted to talk about.

There has been at least 20 folks in on his problem, 18 of those trying to help, if I remember correctly only one or two with a problem, and one of those may have been the topic starter.

I may need to start keeping up with that other board, and seeing how folks there put up with this kind of stuff.

I still find it interesting.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

"I dont buy the "I answer so many posts in a day I dont pay attention to who I said what to. "

Your point is well taken when applied to the other board. W/ a post count that averages less than 10 a day on most days, I usually remember who had a question there from 2 or 3 days ago. Not so here. So, I asked the guy to tell me the specifics on his tractor & if you care to read my post, it wasn't "scolding" in the least. What he told me was that he had provided that info, 3 pages back. Rather than just answer the question, I'm being told to go look it up if I want to help him.