Frontmount points problems

[Bruce (VA)]

This is yet another follow-up to the ongoing reports of problems getting the .015 gap with new points.

As I mentioned on an earlier post, I got a set of Bluestreak points opened to .030 on a distributor w/ new bushings.

I was hoping that I had a set of Bluestreak points on the shelf to measure the wear block. Turns out the ones on the shelf are Airtex. Wear block measures .0249 on my cheap digital calipers.

I'd be interested in seeing what the wear block measures on other brands of points, especially Echlin and Bluestreak.

Assuming new bushings are installed, other than the screw holes being in the wrong place or the highly unlikely worn distributor cam, I can't think of any other reason why it's difficult to get the gap opened to .015.
75 Tips

 

[flembo]

Bruce I am thinking it is more likely the wear block because in my experience when you try filing the screw slot it causes the head of the screw to hit and it is still hard to get the .015 never mind any thing over that and many others on here have said the same. On another note do the Blue Streak points have any identifying marks on them, the reason I ask is I bought the more expensive tune-up kit from here one time that claimed points were Blue Streak but I couldn't get the .015 gap so I went to my old stash and grabbed an old set of points and was able to get about .030 gap. It makes me wonder if that set really had Blue Streak points or some other brand by mistake.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Yep, I agree that it's probably the wear block. I'd like to see some measurements though to confirm it.

I've got a used set of 'no-name' points I also measured; wear block was .210
75 Tips

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 13:09:14 01/04/18) Yep, I agree that it's probably the wear block. I'd like to see some measurements though to confirm it.

I've got a used set of 'no-name' points I also measured; wear block was .210
75 Tips

hat measures 0.210? Where to where?

 

[flembo]

Bruce it was about 2 yrs. ago when I had the problem I just described and you and I had a discussion back then and at that time I measured the cam and shaft and all was to spec. and bushings were good. I have 2 early 8n's and have had the same problem with both. I replaced bushings on Mr. Fixit a few yrs. back but still had the problem. I hope that Blue Streak are still Ok. I think I have a set on the shelf and will measure the wear block and get back to you. BTW I have never tried Napa points for the font mounts.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

(quoted from post at 10:25:47 01/04/18)

(quoted from post at 13:09:14 01/04/18) Yep, I agree that it's probably the wear block. I'd like to see some measurements though to confirm it.

I've got a used set of 'no-name' points I also measured; wear block was .210
75 Tips

hat measures 0.210? Where to where?

From the back of the wear block to the part that touches the cam. On the new set of points, it was .249

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Excellent! Looking forward to hearing from you.

 

[Jim in Western MI]

Can you describe what you mean by the head of the screw hitting??? The screw is in the same location after the hole in the points assembly is elongated a bit since the plate is tapped for it..., how would it move? Only the points were slightly modified to get it to pivot a couple thousandths of an inch. I got mine at NAPA and they said Blue STreak, but did not look like prior Blue Streaks I used to find commonly ten or 15 years ago. I did see a set that had a plastic wear block but would not buy them, I held out until I could find the fiber wear block which at least resembled prior sets of points.

 

[John in WVa]

Bruce from what I have found is the contact point on the primary&secondary part of the points are to long. I have a set of NOS FOMOCO that are lower & the mount plate holes are a little different

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:10:54 01/04/18)

(quoted from post at 10:25:47 01/04/18)

(quoted from post at 13:09:14 01/04/18) Yep, I agree that it's probably the wear block. I'd like to see some measurements though to confirm it.

I've got a used set of 'no-name' points I also measured; wear block was .210
75 Tips

hat measures 0.210? Where to where?

From the back of the wear block to the part that touches the cam. On the new set of points, it was .249

APA-Echlin CS35 (new), 0.225. However, given the many dimensions in the total geometry including pivot point, length to pivot from both contact & from rubbing block, and the fixed contact and .........., I don't see this dimension as significant.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Well, nothing is easy.........

I just ordered a set of Bluestreak points off of Amazon. Doesn't appear that NAPA stocks them anymore. Put the Blue Streak #FD-6769X (Premium) number in & it comes back to the Echlin CS-35 points.

I'll see if I can get a set of those from NAPA and do a side-by-side & measurement on all 3 sets.

In other words.....it's cold as hell here & I'm not leaving the garage for the next week!

 

[HFJ]

(quoted from post at 15:43:59 01/04/18 )

[b:fab5d29a80]"In other words.....it's cold as hell here & I'm not leaving the garage for the next week! "[/b:fab5d29a80]

:lol: tell me about it. i brought the ford's battery inside a couple of days ago, and u can't pay me to go outside for a while now...

[i:fab5d29a80]This Afternoon: Mostly sunny and cold, with a steady temperature around 2. Wind chill values as low as -17. Northwest wind around 15 mph, with gusts as high as 22 mph.

Tonight: Partly cloudy, with a low around -9. Wind chill values as low as -26. Northwest wind around 14 mph, with gusts as high as 20 mph.

Friday: Mostly sunny and cold, with a high near 2. Wind chill values as low as -30. Northwest wind around 16 mph, with gusts as high as 23 mph.

Friday Night: Partly cloudy, with a low around -6. Wind chill values as low as -22. Northwest wind 8 to 10 mph.

Saturday: Sunny and cold, with a high near 6. Northwest wind 6 to 9 mph.

Saturday Night: Increasing clouds, with a low around -2[/i:fab5d29a80]

sunday, i'm hoping to be able to go out to the pole barn and turn the grid tie inverter back on. it's flaky and i don't trust it to not drain a battery too far for these temps.

 

[Colin King]

On a set of un-opened NAPA Echlin CS35 I purchased about 6 years ago, I am measuring .213. I am measuring from the front of the wear block to it's back. Is that correct?

I don't have a distributor in front of me to better visualize the geometry, but couldn't the distance from the center of the mounting pin and the face of the wear block make a difference as well? I'm measuring that at .563 (edge of mounting pin hole on a straight line to flat surface 45* to the face of wear block).

Colin, MN

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" couldn't the distance from the center of the mounting pin and the face of the wear block make a difference as well?"

Yep.

That's what Jesse was saying. It could be geometry as well as the wear block.

Interesting that you get .213 and Jesse got .225

And the Airtex points I have are .249

I'm going to pick up a set of CS35's from NAPA as soon as I can get out of the driveway.......probably Saturday! (quit laughing; this is snow in VA )

I also ordered set of Bluestreaks off of Amazon, due here Monday. Then, I will get to work.
75 Tips

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 15:43:59 01/04/18) Well, nothing is easy.........

I just ordered a set of Bluestreak points off of Amazon. Doesn't appear that NAPA stocks them anymore. Put the Blue Streak #FD-6769X (Premium) number in & it comes back to the Echlin CS-35 points.

I'll see if I can get a set of those from NAPA and do a side-by-side & measurement on all 3 sets.

In other words.....it's cold as hell here & I'm not leaving the garage for the next week!

C'mon Bruce - we are going south of zero (F) tonight and you guys are still in double digits. I am out splitting wood and washing the cars so man up ;-)

TOH

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Yea, a heat wave at 29*. I plowed my drive and the neighbors drive, fed the chickens & did 1/2 mile w/ the dogs. Enough! I'm inside by the fire & probably won't move until, well.........April!

 

[Colin King]

I'm really curious to learn your results. I have an older un-opened set from Tisco, but I was unable to find it in my shop here in town. Probably in the shop out at the farm. I'll try to tack it down tomorrow morning when I go out to do chores. Be safe and stay warm! I'm really looking forward to some warm weather.

Colin

 

[JMOR]

I don't think the 0.2xx dimension is of any importance. What is going to matter for the problem at hand is the relationship shown in green.....contact to pivot and rubbing block to pivot & the angle between. The other half & the screw holes relative to contact face, as well. With the set pictured, the fit doesn't seem right just trying to install, as the extremes (red line) had to be forced past the upper bushing support! Reminds me of the "fat" water pump castings.
Again that sorry piece of humanity by the name of Deming who sold industry the "quality is free" line of bull, based on "it is 'quality' if it meets customer requirements". Here, the customer isn't us, it is YT, Tisco, Atlantic, etc., who ever the re-seller may be. Requirement: it looks OK to sell.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 19:12:38 01/04/18 )
Again that sorry piece of humanity by the name of Deming who sold industry the "quality is free" line of bull, based on "it is 'quality' if it meets customer requirements".

Late in my professional career NIST was "blessed" with a Director that lived and breathed TQM. The resulting management briefings by our Department head were some of the soundest hours of sleep I ever got :roll:

TOH

 

[HCooke]

I have seven tractors with that cursed front mount distributor. If it weren't so dang cold here I would go out to the garage and get my spare distributor that I keep on the shelf ready to install when I have points failure. Maybe this weekend I will check it out. I do not use points from NAPA but I get them from Orscheln which is a Midwest farm and home store. I will post a picture of them also. They look very similar to the one JMOR posted.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Tnx. Makes sense to me. Not sure how precise my measurements are going to be, but I'll give it a shot.
75 Tips

 

[Bruce (VA)]

(quoted from post at 16:25:19 01/04/18)

(quoted from post at 19:12:38 01/04/18 )
Again that sorry piece of humanity by the name of Deming who sold industry the "quality is free" line of bull, based on "it is 'quality' if it meets customer requirements".

Late in my professional career NIST was "blessed" with a Director that lived and breathed TQM. The resulting management briefings by our Department head were some of the soundest hours of sleep I ever got :roll:

TOH

I had to listen to that BS as a grad student followed by the next 28 years in government management. What's worse, there was a new Deity about every 5 years. First w/ MBO, then TQM, Six Sigma. They all run together after a while. Just about all I ever needed to know management-wise I learned as a 19 year old buck sergeant. Everything else was just polish and BS .

 

[teddy52food]

I am unable to walk & use a walker from the house to the 4 wheeler which is just out the door. I start & ride that to the shop each morning . Minus 20 25 temps. Then at noon I drive around so the battery gets a good charge again. In mid Mn.

 

[Jock(OR)]

One thing that everyone should remember is that these point sets are the same as those in the front-mounted V8 Fords from the 1930's and early 40's. The V8 just used two sets points. If we are experiencing this problem, the V8 guys will be too. Perhaps someone can do research on their boards and see it they are having the same discussion.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Tnx Jock!

Great advice.

I've been reading through a lot of posts on the Ford Barn early V-8 forum. The NAPA part number for those points is CS47, which consists of 2 sets of CS35 points in the same box. They have similar complaints about junk points, but nothing as specific as our problem of being unable to get them open. One poster there who rebuilds old Ford distributors swears by NAPA points, but that was like 3 years ago.

I've contacted him and a few others there w/ some questions.

We'll let everyone know what I find out.
75 Tips

 

[gears]

The last ones I did were from Oreillys and they were their BWD lifetime units. To get the contacts square and the gap right I had to bend the stationary contact around a bit. But I haven't had any trouble with it since then.

Just picked up a spare dist in a box of carbs last week, there's even a new package of points.... Don't remember the brand (they're blister packed), maybe if I trudge out to the barn today I'll bring them in to tinker with.

 

[ZANE]

Well, Something ain't right! What ever it is I hope somebody will get it figured out before these ---- things drive me crazy. Last ones I put in I bent the stationairy contact up so I could get it open without drimmeling the holds etc and it's still running. Might even be better. Ignition loves a sharp point I'm told. :O)

Zane

 

[Bruce (VA)]

(quoted from post at 13:36:45 01/05/18) Well, Something ain't right! What ever it is I hope somebody will get it figured out before these ---- things drive me crazy. Last ones I put in I bent the stationairy contact up so I could get it open without drimmeling the holds etc and it's still running. Might even be better. Ignition loves a sharp point I'm told. :O)

Zane

We're working on it Zane! Will let everyone know what we find out.

 

[JMOR]

Too much time on my hands!

 

[Bruce (VA)]

I'll never be able to replicate that!

Got any Bluestreaks to measure?

 

[R Geiger]

All problems with a front mount dist. can be solved by replacing it with a Magneto. That is, if you could find a drive adapter. Mine has been running at lest 6 years with no problems, figure sooner or later I will ahve to replae the points in it but so far so good.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:53:14 01/05/18)
All problems with a front mount dist. can be solved by replacing it with a Magneto. That is, if you could find a drive adapter. Mine has been running at lest 6 years with no problems, figure sooner or later I will ahve to replae the points in it but so far so good.

oints is points.

 

[R Geiger]

Very true but I think the magneto is sealed a lot better.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 23:28:33 01/05/18) Very true but I think the magneto is sealed a lot better.

do not doubt you.

 

[gears]

Here's my sparex set. Just tried fancy lines,arrows & measurements like JMOR 5 times on this stupid ipad and each time when I finished, all the lines disappeared!

Same measurements except for the wear block, I got .1140" and the contact is .0715"

Now, that's eyeballing it with the digital mic.....

I like the way this set has the brass bushing for the pivot.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Thanks for checking it out!

Just to make sure I'm following you:

JMOR got .075 on the wear block, you got .1140

JMOR got .075 on the contact, you got .0715.

Correct?

Your .1140 measurement is interesting; it's almost twice the value Jesse got.
75 Tips

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 08:47:25 01/07/18) Thanks for checking it out!

Just to make sure I'm following you:

JMOR got .075 on the wear block, you got .1140

JMOR got .075 on the contact, you got .0715.

Correct?

Your .1140 measurement is interesting; it's almost twice the value Jesse got.
75 Tips

You need to know start and end points of measurement taken.

TOH

 

[gears]

I tried to eyeball from 90* through the pivot, like JMOR's illustration. Maybe this weekif I have time I'll dye and scribe lines for better pics.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Tnx!

Post back w/ results, please!
75 Tips

 

[Bruce (VA)]

The cold weekend gave me the time to try and find out why folks are having problems getting new points to open to the required gap of .015. With a lot of help from JMOR, I?m sorry to report that neither one of us can definitively say what the cause is. But, I think we can say with some degree of certainty what is NOT causing the problem.

Please note that both JMOR and I are operating at a distinct handicap of never having personally experienced the problem of not being able to get a new set of points to open to .015.

Our conclusion as of today: it?s not likely the points. It?s the sum total of worn parts in the distributor.

So, please prove us wrong! If you can not get a set of new points to open to .015, pull the distributor apart and start measuring. And then share w/ us what you find.

Now for the detail.

I used new in the box Airtex, NAPA and Bluestreak points. I stacked them one on top of the other on a 3/16? drill bit to replicate the .185 pivot post. There was no discernable, visible difference in the three sets of points.

I could not replicate JMOR?s measurement of the wear block dimensions. Measuring the thickness of the wear block doesn?t tell us anything as JMOR has already noted. The wear block dimension that counts is the distance from the center of the pivot pin to the leading edge of the block. JMOR estimated that at .075 on his set of NAPA points. (below)

From my measurements, I got the Airtex points open to .035, the NAPA points to .026 and the Bluestreaks to slightly more then .035 (biggest feeler gauge blade I have is .035) .

I can offer no explanation for the smaller gap w/ the NAPA points. It must be the adjusting slot in the points base which is measurably different than the Airtex and Bluestreak points. But, I can?t see the difference between .319/.321 and .313 on the NAPA points as accounting for the difference between a max gap of .035 and .026.

My conclusions, based upon some guess work: the critical measurements in the distributor start with the adjusting screw and its free travel. I got a measurement of .244 on the head of the screw and free travel of .032. (I lifted the plate up and measured the distance between the top bushing tower and the screw). Those measurements, plus wear on the cam lobes, bushings and shaft could easily, in my opinion, result in enough slop in the distributor to not allow a gap of .015.

Lastly, as Jock (OR) suggested, I checked the vintage V-8 Ford board (Ford Barn) That's because the dual point Ford V-8 distributor from 1936 to 1948 uses the same design points as does our frontmount. One of the 2 sets is in fact identical to our CS35. While they complain about points quality, no one reported a gap issue. And one regular on that board rebuilds old V-8 Ford distributors and says the NAPA points are the best on the market. Others buy NOS points off of eBay.
75 Tips

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 15:26:49 01/08/18) The cold weekend gave me the time to try and find out why folks are having problems getting new points to open to the required gap of .015. With a lot of help from JMOR, I?m sorry to report that neither one of us can definitively say what the cause is. But, I think we can say with some degree of certainty what is NOT causing the problem.

Please note that both JMOR and I are operating at a distinct handicap of never having personally experienced the problem of not being able to get a new set of points to open to .015.

Our conclusion as of today: it?s not likely the points. It?s the sum total of worn parts in the distributor.

So, please prove us wrong! If you can not get a set of new points to open to .015, pull the distributor apart and start measuring. And then share w/ us what you find.

Now for the detail.

I used new in the box Airtex, NAPA and Bluestreak points. I stacked them one on top of the other on a 3/16? drill bit to replicate the .185 pivot post. There was no discernable, visible difference in the three sets of points.

I could not replicate JMOR?s measurement of the wear block dimensions. Measuring the thickness of the wear block doesn?t tell us anything as JMOR has already noted. The wear block dimension that counts is the distance from the center of the pivot pin to the leading edge of the block. JMOR estimated that at .075 on his set of NAPA points. (below)

From my measurements, I got the Airtex points open to .035, the NAPA points to .026 and the Bluestreaks to slightly more then .035 (biggest feeler gauge blade I have is .035) .

I can offer no explanation for the smaller gap w/ the NAPA points. It must be the adjusting slot in the points base which is measurably different than the Airtex and Bluestreak points. But, I can?t see the difference between .319/.321 and .313 on the NAPA points as accounting for the difference between a max gap of .035 and .026.

My conclusions, based upon some guess work: the critical measurements in the distributor start with the adjusting screw and its free travel. I got a measurement of .244 on the head of the screw and free travel of .032. (I lifted the plate up and measured the distance between the top bushing tower and the screw). Those measurements, plus wear on the cam lobes, bushings and shaft could easily, in my opinion, result in enough slop in the distributor to not allow a gap of .015.

Lastly, as Jock (OR) suggested, I checked the vintage V-8 Ford board (Ford Barn) That's because the dual point Ford V-8 distributor from 1936 to 1948 uses the same design points as does our frontmount. One of the 2 sets is in fact identical to our CS35. While they complain about points quality, no one reported a gap issue. And one regular on that board rebuilds old V-8 Ford distributors and says the NAPA points are the best on the market. Others buy NOS points off of eBay.
75 Tips

his image belongs to Bruce's post.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

(quoted from post at 12:49:31 01/08/18)

(quoted from post at 15:26:49 01/08/18) The cold weekend gave me the time to try and find out why folks are having problems getting new points to open to the required gap of .015. With a lot of help from JMOR, I?m sorry to report that neither one of us can definitively say what the cause is. But, I think we can say with some degree of certainty what is NOT causing the problem.

Please note that both JMOR and I are operating at a distinct handicap of never having personally experienced the problem of not being able to get a new set of points to open to .015.

Our conclusion as of today: it?s not likely the points. It?s the sum total of worn parts in the distributor.

So, please prove us wrong! If you can not get a set of new points to open to .015, pull the distributor apart and start measuring. And then share w/ us what you find.

Now for the detail.

I used new in the box Airtex, NAPA and Bluestreak points. I stacked them one on top of the other on a 3/16? drill bit to replicate the .185 pivot post. There was no discernable, visible difference in the three sets of points.

I could not replicate JMOR?s measurement of the wear block dimensions. Measuring the thickness of the wear block doesn?t tell us anything as JMOR has already noted. The wear block dimension that counts is the distance from the center of the pivot pin to the leading edge of the block. JMOR estimated that at .075 on his set of NAPA points. (below)

From my measurements, I got the Airtex points open to .035, the NAPA points to .026 and the Bluestreaks to slightly more then .035 (biggest feeler gauge blade I have is .035) .

I can offer no explanation for the smaller gap w/ the NAPA points. It must be the adjusting slot in the points base which is measurably different than the Airtex and Bluestreak points. But, I can?t see the difference between .319/.321 and .313 on the NAPA points as accounting for the difference between a max gap of .035 and .026.

My conclusions, based upon some guess work: the critical measurements in the distributor start with the adjusting screw and its free travel. I got a measurement of .244 on the head of the screw and free travel of .032. (I lifted the plate up and measured the distance between the top bushing tower and the screw). Those measurements, plus wear on the cam lobes, bushings and shaft could easily, in my opinion, result in enough slop in the distributor to not allow a gap of .015.

Lastly, as Jock (OR) suggested, I checked the vintage V-8 Ford board (Ford Barn) That's because the dual point Ford V-8 distributor from 1936 to 1948 uses the same design points as does our frontmount. One of the 2 sets is in fact identical to our CS35. While they complain about points quality, no one reported a gap issue. And one regular on that board rebuilds old V-8 Ford distributors and says the NAPA points are the best on the market. Others buy NOS points off of eBay.
75 Tips

his image belongs to Bruce's post.

Thanks Jesse!