FTC suing John Deere

[scootergmc]

Back to the topic at hand rather than personal anecdotes- JD appears to have been dragging its feet as evidenced by their PR announcement response yesterday, highlighting their changes from just this week. Who knows what the FTC has been doing, so both could be at fault. Or nobody could be at fault. Or this could be political posturing given all the goofy stuff going on the last month of this administration.

Read the complaint: https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/DeereCoREDACTEDComplaintCaseNo325-cv-50017.pdf
Read Deere's PR response: https://www.deere.com/en/news/all-news/deere-responds-to-ftc-complaint/

 

[sonnythomas]

That seems quite reasonable to expect for a dealer to do it really. Some of the new ones have an oil change kit with oil in it. Anymore you can expect half parts half labor going in so if you have 150 in parts you have 150 in labor. Plus the tax man getting his cut you are pretty much there. That has been consistent no matter the color for awhile now. 150 doesn’t buy you an hour and a half at a dealer around here. That’s why I stay out of there if I can. I met the service manager at the local dealership the other day and he was like I have seen your name come up every couple days on the phone log and we haven’t ever met…there’s a reason for that. YouTube is a wonderful resource.

Honestly as much as they pay the kid he probably had 4 hours in it by the time he sharpened those blades and did everything and you paid a flat rate. It’s 50/50 if they made a dime off you other than the parts markup. Service for the dealer has been a money looser for awhile. Not to mention when something gets screwed up I remember seeing several million dollar whoopsies on the mining side up north at the company I worked for. One particular ticket stayed open for like 3 years.

I feel like Deere has a right to make me pay for their resources it’s up to me if I can find used tooling and books or make my own tooling. Your brother sounds mechanically competent it might be time to rely on him more as a first choice. The wonderful thing about around here is there’s 20 green dealerships within a 100 mile radius I’ve gone places to ask answers to questions I need and if I didn’t like something on to the next guy.

Honestly I have seen these lawsuits as trouble from the start and the quickest way Deere will be destroyed all it takes is being forced to give their software info to the wrong company. Honestly how often is that controller the problem everyone whines constantly about the computer but unless they have been having constant trouble where a bulletin was issued it’s usually a 1 off or a missed diagnosis at caterpillar I put 3 engine ecms in agco and cat equipment over 7 years it was never the issue always wiring. And an ECM is expensive people see the price tag on their bill and think it would be better if someone else did the labor. Not at all. It took him 10 minutes to put it on and flash the ecm carrying 3000 dollar software that HE as in the mechanic or dealer had to pay for. You still have to pay for the 5000 dollar ecm that’s unlikely to be correct and work except from the oem source.

It’s reason like above if I was Deere I’d toss the lawn mower business the only advantage I can see for them is it’s fairly low risk.

The "kid" didn't sharpen the blades. I requested a new battery, oil filter and oil change. Already told that I raised the roof enough I got $100 off the bill and promised another $75 that I didn't get.

 

[sonnythomas]

I guess I'll just keep mowing with my '16 Dixie chopper that has never needed a trip to the dealer. It's only needed regular engine oil changes, 1 battery & simple blade drive belt change

I had Sears lawn tractor before the John Deeres. I think it was on sale - $995 and tax. It ran great for the 10 years I owned it. And the thousands wrapped up the John Deeres.

 

[wh]

I guess you can't read. I told them to leave the deck alone and didn't want the blades sharpened. I got stuck with the Gold program and didn't get what Gold program called for. I raised roof enough that I got $100 off the bill and promised another $75 that didn't get.
I trade in a smaller John Deere lawn tractor and paid $7000 on top of that. It had anti-slip. On hillsides, if it slipped, it shut down. Engine blew and warranty covered it

I guess you can't read. I told them to leave the deck alone and didn't want the blades sharpened. I got stuck with the Gold program and didn't get what Gold program called for. I raised roof enough that I got $100 off the bill and promised another $75 that didn't get.
I trade in a smaller John Deere lawn tractor and paid $7000 on top of that. It had anti-slip. On hillsides, if it slipped, it shut down. Engine blew and warranty covered it.

Read very well. You paid $365 for oil change and battery replacement. Then got $100 back. That leaves $265. Subtract $110 for battery and that leaves $155. Just for giggles subtract $15 for filter, $25 for 3 quarts oil. That leaves $115 for labor to change oil, remove/re install new battery. Nothing there to gripe about.

 

[DoubleO7]

I didn't expect warranty for battery.

But earlier you said:

The oversize battery in the lawn tractor was put in at the factory, shouldn't been any charge for taking apart to get it out, falling under warranty.

Like I said, there is no labor warranty to change out a non warranty battery.

 

[Jim.ME]

The current warranty info for the X500 series on a JD site says 4 years or 500 hours, whichever comes first. Tires and Batteries are covered under separate warranties. One would need to see your actual warranties to see if the same conditions applied to your X540.

X540 appears to have been built 2006 to 2014, so it would have been out of coverage since at least 2018, if purchased within the model run, maybe a year or two more if purchased as a holdover.

Again, not saying the dealer was not in error to some level, but it is hard to totally condemn them without all the info from both sides.

As for the right to repair, lawsuits occur all the time as leverage. I think they are getting better about supplying info and tooling. I think one thing is that many think the right to repair is going to come with a $49.95 code reader like you can get on Amazon, eBay or many other places, which I don't see happening. Right to repair doesn't mean low or no cost. It does not mean technical manuals and such written for trained mechanics, have to describe things down to the level of many DIY car people who have no training.

I also think manufacturers are going to ask for protection from being sued or held liable for adjustments and repairs made outside of their direct or dealer control. An example is the diesel pickups "rolling coal" and reports I have seen of legisaltors making noise about holding manufacturers liable for system that could be modified. And of course those supplying equipment to reset parameters of a vehicle to make it happen.

The same applies to all manufacturer's providing repair info and tooling that may have proprietary qualifications.

 

[sonnythomas]

But earlier you said:

Like I said, there is no labor warranty to change out a non warranty battery.

The oversize battery was put in at the factory. Mistake at the factory. The lawn tractor had to be taken apart to get the battery out.

 

[sonnythomas]

Bottom line: I saved $300 on two repair bills. Carb rebuilt for no good reason. Something related to the carb replaced and didn't need replaced. Wire harness cut open for no good reason. Charged for two parts that weren't installed - one of the repair employees knew that was wrong. I dealt with four different people getting things sorted out. The fourth finding my air filter cover that the mechanic said wasn't on the tractor.

 

[sonnythomas]

Read very well. You paid $365 for oil change and battery replacement. Then got $100 back. That leaves $265. Subtract $110 for battery and that leaves $155. Just for giggles subtract $15 for filter, $25 for 3 quarts oil. That leaves $115 for labor to change oil, remove/re install new battery. Nothing there to gripe about.

You saying I have to pay to have my tractor taking apart to replace the battery?

 

[wh]

You saying I have to pay to have my tractor taking apart to replace the battery?

I am saying the dealer gets paid for the time it takes to work on the tractor. Never knew any dealer that worked for free.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

The "kid" didn't sharpen the blades. I requested a new battery, oil filter and oil change. Already told that I raised the roof enough I got $100 off the bill and promised another $75 that I didn't get.

I get it now that took a minute I thought you received service you didn’t request. They still probably billed you for the gold service since that flat rate was lower than what you would have paid by the hour but then didn’t delete or change it. Then when you got upset they attempted to make it right by moving said high school kids labor on the service from the bill to shop clean up and wiped clean the shop supplies off your bill. They then realized they didn’t have the other 75 because he didn’t have the labor in the blades. Then they couldn’t get rid of the labor on your battery like they thought because the mechanic was efficient and they can’t erase all of it and left you 3/4 hour so they knew which mechanic to slap if it burned to the ground because a wire was touching the frame and the customer has already been in raising heck. A wise man once told me you can only give away what you receive and it doesn’t sound like they received much for what they did. I would expect myself to have 2-3 hours in a battery like that by the time I source a battery from town. Even if I was only charging 20 bucks an hour you can’t really say they over charged you. Other than a billing problem do you have an issue with their work?

 

[Mcrafty1]

Considering that nearly all dealers around here get 125 dollars per hour regardless of equipment type and most charge a pickup/ drop off fee that does not sound bad at all.

....or, they all sound bad, depends on how you look at it...is the glass half full or is it half empty. My personal view is...and it IS my personal view, they aren't dubbed 'stealership' for the love of their customers. Here in my neck of the woods the labor price is just that, the parts are marked up considerably more than 200% and in some cases double that amount. The upside to that is we all know it by now, if we don't we haven't been paying attention.

 

[Duner Wi]

Like i said, oversize battery installed at the factory. No way to get it out normally. Mechanic had take the instrument piece off and move the steering shaft to get the battery out. New battery dropped in. Because I had it there, I went a oil filter and oil change.
I'm not a electrician and no way to check a faulty computer.

Can you tell us please what bci battery group was defective and removed from X540? BCi 51 is what 4 different battery sites say is what they sell for X540. No mention of sub batteries. What is currently installed? Different physical size than was removed?

 

[DoubleO7]

Can you tell us please what bci battery group was defective and removed from X540? BCi 51 is what 4 different battery sites say is what they sell for X540. No mention of sub batteries. What is currently installed? Different physical size than was removed?

Pretty odd that there is even room on those to install anything but a smaller battery.

 

[Jim.ME]

....or, they all sound bad, depends on how you look at it...is the glass half full or is it half empty. My personal view is...and it IS my personal view, they aren't dubbed 'stealership' for the love of their customers. Here in my neck of the woods the labor price is just that, the parts are marked up considerably more than 200% and in some cases double that amount. The upside to that is we all know it by now, if we don't we haven't been paying attention.

The parts are marked up more than 200% from what? Marked up from the manufacturer's suggested retail price for the OEM part or 200% from what you can find an aftermarket part for online? There is a difference, and the comparison needs to be apples to apples. The JD mega-dealer most all of us (believe we are talking about the same one) have to deal with in this state (basically all of New England) is higher on some items, and the same or less on other items, than other dealers I can find prices from across the country. They often are a bit above one of the few independent dealers left I know of, but general it is close enough that it is not worth the time to travel or shipping for the price difference. It is often more a case of the independent still has some older ag parts in stock (and people who know about the equipment) if needed right away. The mega-dealer often has less experienced staff and is more likely to only have parts for later model units as they swing away from the old equipment, so planning ahead comes into play to save shipping costs by having them include things we are going to need on their stock orders. As well as us planning ahead for the wear parts, bearings, etc., we know may fail unexpectedly, and having those on our shelves, which also allows price shopping OEM and aftermarket.

I am not saying the dealer group is faultless by any means and I have been frustrated with them before, and expect to be again, but I have not seen the type of price markups you mention here, when I compare their part prices to other JD dealers outside of their territory, aftermarket parts excluded.

I think service is heading downhill for anyone running older equipment, just like the auto service industry. The knowledgeable ones for equipment I run are retiring from the dealers, and the new ones have experience with the new equipment. We don't have the farms running old equipment for the new guys to learn on. The larger farms we have now tend to run newer and larger equipment. Really no different than when I first started, I could deal with the new cars, trucks and equipment the company purchased quicker and easier than the old mechanics. I was just fortunate enough that they helped me learn about the old equipment they were familiar with and was able to help them with a few new things. I don't think that happens as much now as it used to.

JMHO

 

[DoubleO7]

The knowledgeable ones for equipment I run are retiring from the dealers, and the new ones have experience with the new equipment.

Would be fun to take an ailing Model T into the local Ford dealer for a tune-up.

 

[M-MAN]

Like i said, oversize battery installed at the factory. No way to get it out normally. Mechanic had take the instrument piece off and move the steering shaft to get the battery out. New battery dropped in. Because I had it there, I went a oil filter and oil change.
I'm not a electrician and no way to check a faulty computer.

Having to remove the instrument panel side cover to remove the battery is normal. Cub Cadets required it 30 years ago. Doesn't take much mechanical skill to figure that out. The owners manual may even address it. The bill for work performed was reasonable and the dealer refunded the money for the normal extra work you didn't want so there's no reason to gripe about Deere.

 

[GChief]

Would be fun to take an ailing Model T into the local Ford dealer for a tune-up.

There's a video about that on YT

 

[Duner Wi]

Pretty odd that there is even room on those to install anything but a smaller battery.

BCI 51 is same width but is 1 1/3 inch wider. Think it might fit??

 

[DoubleO7]

BCI 51 is same width but is 1 1/3 inch wider. Think it might fit??

To me width and wider mean the same side.