FTC suing John Deere

[Duner Wi]

To me width and wider mean the same side.

Both are 5 inches in width. So neither is wider than the other. One is longer though ,that's probably where the trouble started. The battery cable connectors are quite different one to the other.

 

[Jim.ME]

Both are 5 inches in width. So neither is wider than the other. One is longer though ,that's probably where the trouble started. The battery cable connectors are quite different one to the other.

The JD parts catalog for the X540 calls out the four batteries listed as BCI 51. They have varying AH and CCA rating, but all BCI 51, likely made for JD by different manufacturer's over the production run.

A group 51R is the same size with the posts on the opposite ends.

It may be there, and I missed it, but what it the second battery's group number in your "both"? BCI 51 is one of them.

 

[Duner Wi]

The JD parts catalog for the X540 calls out the four batteries listed as BCI 51. They have varying AH and CCA rating, but all BCI 51, likely made for JD by different manufacturer's over the production run.

A group 51R is the same size with the posts on the opposite ends.

It may be there, and I missed it, but what it the second battery's group number in your "both"? BCI 51 is one of them.

Sonny says his battery is too large as installed from factory. I am guessing he thinks a U1 or U1R would be correct because lots of riders used U1 and U1R batteries for many years. BCI 51s were common in rice burners 40 years ago give or take.

 

[Jim.ME]

Sonny says his battery is too large as installed from factory. I am guessing he thinks a U1 or U1R would be correct because lots of riders used U1 and U1R batteries for many years. BCI 51s were common in rice burners 40 years ago give or take.

Unless he can tell what the original was and what it is now, who knows what he had, thought it should be, or if they installed a smaller than OEM spec for him.

 

[Duner Wi]

Unless he can tell what the original was and what it is now, who knows what he had, thought it should be, or if they installed a smaller than OEM spec for him.

Exactly guessing and assumptions. I did ask Sonny , I see post #33.

 

[Mcrafty1]

The parts are marked up more than 200% from what? Marked up from the manufacturer's suggested retail price for the OEM part or 200% from what you can find an aftermarket part for online? There is a difference, and the comparison needs to be apples to apples. The JD mega-dealer most all of us (believe we are talking about the same one) have to deal with in this state (basically all of New England) is higher on some items, and the same or less on other items, than other dealers I can find prices from across the country. They often are a bit above one of the few independent dealers left I know of, but general it is close enough that it is not worth the time to travel or shipping for the price difference. It is often more a case of the independent still has some older ag parts in stock (and people who know about the equipment) if needed right away. The mega-dealer often has less experienced staff and is more likely to only have parts for later model units as they swing away from the old equipment, so planning ahead comes into play to save shipping costs by having them include things we are going to need on their stock orders. As well as us planning ahead for the wear parts, bearings, etc., we know may fail unexpectedly, and having those on our shelves, which also allows price shopping OEM and aftermarket.

I am not saying the dealer group is faultless by any means and I have been frustrated with them before, and expect to be again, but I have not seen the type of price markups you mention here, when I compare their part prices to other JD dealers outside of their territory, aftermarket parts excluded.

I think service is heading downhill for anyone running older equipment, just like the auto service industry. The knowledgeable ones for equipment I run are retiring from the dealers, and the new ones have experience with the new equipment. We don't have the farms running old equipment for the new guys to learn on. The larger farms we have now tend to run newer and larger equipment. Really no different than when I first started, I could deal with the new cars, trucks and equipment the company purchased quicker and easier than the old mechanics. I was just fortunate enough that they helped me learn about the old equipment they were familiar with and was able to help them with a few new things. I don't think that happens as much now as it used to.

JMHO

Aftermarket kit https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/wheel-bearing-kit-new-john-deere-re54814-102229.html

Aftermarket imho are or may be of a lesser quality but not THAT much less.

JD dealer JD parts Charge to me..$$800.00 for parts, 1 day labor. Total quote to do the repair $2160.00
I had the brake discs replaced while it was apart, Total with those parts just north of $2600.00

This is just the most recent jab, Either JD bearings are made of some rare precious metal or they charge exuberant prices for their parts or they're labor..or both. Again, this is just my opinion. I own at this time three pieces of JD equipment. The 4020 is the most recent. Ive had work done on all three at different times, all relatively minor repairs. I've yet to get out the door with less than a $2000.00 bill. I'm not capable of doing heavy repairs anymore and have to use the available options when that type of work needs done....but I don't have to like it. I've mentioned no names nor would I. I will not however normalize the charges dealers get. There just isn't anyone near me left doing these kinds of repairs so I don't have many choices. But to reiterate, I don't have to like it.
I think it's important to note, we're not building rocket ships here.
It's also important to note it's not just the dealer i'm noting here it's all dealers across the spectrum, pick your poison.

 

[Jim.ME]

Aftermarket kit https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/wheel-bearing-kit-new-john-deere-re54814-102229.html

Aftermarket imho are or may be of a lesser quality but not THAT much less.

JD dealer JD parts Charge to me..$$800.00 for parts, 1 day labor. Total quote to do the repair $2160.00
I had the brake discs replaced while it was apart, Total with those parts just north of $2600.00

This is just the most recent jab, Either JD bearings are made of some rare precious metal or they charge exuberant prices for their parts or they're labor..or both. Again, this is just my opinion. I own at this time three pieces of JD equipment. The 4020 is the most recent. Ive had work done on all three at different times, all relatively minor repairs. I've yet to get out the door with less than a $2000.00 bill. I'm not capable of doing heavy repairs anymore and have to use the available options when that type of work needs done....but I don't have to like it. I've mentioned no names nor would I. I will not however normalize the charges dealers get. There just isn't anyone near me left doing these kinds of repairs so I don't have many choices. But to reiterate, I don't have to like it.
I think it's important to note, we're not building rocket ships here.
It's also important to note it's not just the dealer i'm noting here it's all dealers across the spectrum, pick your poison.

I don't like dealing with the dealers either, and so far, I have not had to take anything to the local JD group. That does mean I need to spend money on manuals (which I do as I get a new machine) and some of the special tools, which I have done as well. In one case after not being able to work out an agreeable deal with a service manager to have a rear main seal installed, I bought the tool. I wanted to bring the engine to them, at their convenience (first thing in the morning, after break, end of day, etc.), for the seal to be installed, loaded so they could walk up to it install their tool and push the seal (which I had purchased from them) in, a 15-minute task. The shop foreman was good with the idea, wanted to give one of his new techs the experience. However, after being told by the service manager/writer that the foreman couldn't do that (as he and I didn't know how long it took to put a rear main seal in) and I needed to make an appointment at least two weeks ahead, and plan on leaving the engine as it would take at least a couple hours, when they got to it. At that point I decided that two hours labor the service manager wanted to get would purchase the tool for me, so I bought one. Their labor charges cover many things including them having such tools and access to JD computer systems/manuals.

Comparing aftermarket part prices to OEM part prices isn't apples to apples. As I said the price checking I have done between dealers the local group is in line with dealer prices across the country for OEM parts. Very seldom will you see a dealer use an aftermarket part if the OEM part is available, why would they, their business and systems are to support the OEM. This applies to all the OEM manufacturers AG, Turf, cars, trucks, and other equipment. And as hard as it is to believe I have found some things at the dealer that I can get for about the same or less than aftermarket.

The aftermarket parts are often reverse engineered/copied so there are no R&D costs for them. Quality can be all over the place, how often are there rants here about parts "from the land of almost right"? Are dealers selling some of the same parts with the JD (or other OEM) label on them? Very possible. I know JD owns A&I and I don't believe all those "alternate" parts and the OEM one in the parts books are always coming off two different manufacturing lines.

As I said, I don't like it either, not trying to normalize it, just trying say what I am seeing, same as you are telling it as you see things. If I stand back and look at things as a third party, it is not their fault, in most cases, if I cannot do my own repairs, or do not have an independent shop to use for those repairs and have to go to them. That is in my control. Same for parts, if I chose to purchase from their parts department rather than do some research of other sources, that is within my control, if an aftermarket or used part is available. Let's face it, most of the Lawn and garden thru compact tractor group is more willing to have their machine picked up, serviced, and returned to them, than those of us that know how to do the repairs. Where are they making their money now? It isn't from us; we aren't buying much if any new equipment. Age old theory in play, Charge what the traffic will bear, as I see it. What you or I do for business with them isn't critical to them anymore, as I see it. JMHO

 

[Mcrafty1]

I don't like dealing with the dealers either, and so far, I have not had to take anything to the local JD group. That does mean I need to spend money on manuals (which I do as I get a new machine) and some of the special tools, which I have done as well. In one case after not being able to work out an agreeable deal with a service manager to have a rear main seal installed, I bought the tool. I wanted to bring the engine to them, at their convenience (first thing in the morning, after break, end of day, etc.), for the seal to be installed, loaded so they could walk up to it install their tool and push the seal (which I had purchased from them) in, a 15-minute task. The shop foreman was good with the idea, wanted to give one of his new techs the experience. However, after being told by the service manager/writer that the foreman couldn't do that (as he and I didn't know how long it took to put a rear main seal in) and I needed to make an appointment at least two weeks ahead, and plan on leaving the engine as it would take at least a couple hours, when they got to it. At that point I decided that two hours labor the service manager wanted to get would purchase the tool for me, so I bought one. Their labor charges cover many things including them having such tools and access to JD computer systems/manuals.

Comparing aftermarket part prices to OEM part prices isn't apples to apples. As I said the price checking I have done between dealers the local group is in line with dealer prices across the country for OEM parts. Very seldom will you see a dealer use an aftermarket part if the OEM part is available, why would they, their business and systems are to support the OEM. This applies to all the OEM manufacturers AG, Turf, cars, trucks, and other equipment. And as hard as it is to believe I have found some things at the dealer that I can get for about the same or less than aftermarket.

The aftermarket parts are often reverse engineered/copied so there are no R&D costs for them. Quality can be all over the place, how often are there rants here about parts "from the land of almost right"? Are dealers selling some of the same parts with the JD (or other OEM) label on them? Very possible. I know JD owns A&I and I don't believe all those "alternate" parts and the OEM one in the parts books are always coming off two different manufacturing lines.

As I said, I don't like it either, not trying to normalize it, just trying say what I am seeing, same as you are telling it as you see things. If I stand back and look at things as a third party, it is not their fault, in most cases, if I cannot do my own repairs, or do not have an independent shop to use for those repairs and have to go to them. That is in my control. Same for parts, if I chose to purchase from their parts department rather than do some research of other sources, that is within my control, if an aftermarket or used part is available. Let's face it, most of the Lawn and garden thru compact tractor group is more willing to have their machine picked up, serviced, and returned to them, than those of us that know how to do the repairs. Where are they making their money now? It isn't from us; we aren't buying much if any new equipment. Age old theory in play, Charge what the traffic will bear, as I see it. What you or I do for business with them isn't critical to them anymore, as I see it. JMHO

No argument here, a pair of wheel bearings/ cones and a seal ...from the best to the worst just shouldn't be a $750.00 dollar difference was my point, and I wasn't referring to just JD dealers, I was meaning dealer's in general. I agree with what you say about them not needing my business and I won't change they way they do business. However I reserve the right to rant about ...lol

 

[Jim.ME]

No argument here, a pair of wheel bearings/ cones and a seal ...from the best to the worst just shouldn't be a $750.00 dollar difference was my point, and I wasn't referring to just JD dealers, I was meaning dealer's in general. I agree with what you say about them not needing my business and I won't change they way they do business. However I reserve the right to rant about ...lol

Feel free to rant, it is frustrating and is one of the few recourses we often have available.

I will say I am not following all your pricing here. I have an account so can check their prices when I am looking for things. That front wheel bearing kit (RE54814) only retails for about $60 from them. That is only about $5 more than the one you posted after you pay shipping, not $800. The brake discs are about $450 each from them. Plus, the seals and other things to do the brake job, you were easily around at least $1100 in parts from what you have mentioned. The $2600 total minus $1100 in parts leaves about $1500 for 8 hours of labor and taxes. The charge is a good plenty if I am comparing it to my doing it for myself, but in the ballpark of what I would expect to have to pay for a front wheel bearing and a brake job on a 4020, being done by a dealer. Maybe I am misunderstanding just what was done.

 

[Mcrafty1]

Feel free to rant, it is frustrating and is one of the few recourses we often have available.

I will say I am not following all your pricing here. I have an account so can check their prices when I am looking for things. That front wheel bearing kit (RE54814) only retails for about $60 from them. That is only about $5 more than the one you posted after you pay shipping, not $800. The brake discs are about $450 each from them. Plus, the seals and other things to do the brake job, you were easily around at least $1100 in parts from what you have mentioned. The $2600 total minus $1100 in parts leaves about $1500 for 8 hours of labor and taxes. The charge is a good plenty if I am comparing it to my doing it for myself, but in the ballpark of what I would expect to have to pay for a front wheel bearing and a brake job on a 4020, being done by a dealer. Maybe I am misunderstanding just what was done.

The wheel bearing I posted was a quick search and was supposed to be for the rear...My bad, When I looked on line before I took the machine to them I found them for $50.00 with free shipping I just didn't remember what site I found it on. If I recall the bearing I found was on Fridays parts site but again, I really don't remember as I wasn't going to do it myself. I didn't look for brake pads, that was an after thought while they had the tractor apart. In any event, I still think the JD dealers are extremely proud of their parts and Labor. They quoted me around what you stated. The $800.00 for two bearings, two cones and a seal is...in my humble opinion out of this world. The total was exuberant also. If you're happy paying those prices I'm happy for you, I'm not.

I will say I am not following all your pricing here. I have an account so can check their prices when I am looking for things. That front wheel bearing kit (RE54814) only retails for about $60 from them. That is only about $5 more than the one you posted after you pay shipping, not $800. The brake discs are about $450 each from them. Plus, the seals and other things to do the brake job, you were easily around at least $1100 in parts from what you have mentioned. The $2600 total minus $1100 in parts leaves about $1500 for 8 hours of labor and taxes. The charge is a good plenty if I am comparing it to my doing it for myself, but in the ballpark of what I would expect to have to pay for a front wheel bearing and a brake job on a 4020, being done by a dealer. Maybe I am misunderstanding just what was done.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Feel free to rant, it is frustrating and is one of the few recourses we often have available.

I will say I am not following all your pricing here. I have an account so can check their prices when I am looking for things. That front wheel bearing kit (RE54814) only retails for about $60 from them. That is only about $5 more than the one you posted after you pay shipping, not $800. The brake discs are about $450 each from them. Plus, the seals and other things to do the brake job, you were easily around at least $1100 in parts from what you have mentioned. The $2600 total minus $1100 in parts leaves about $1500 for 8 hours of labor and taxes. The charge is a good plenty if I am comparing it to my doing it for myself, but in the ballpark of what I would expect to have to pay for a front wheel bearing and a brake job on a 4020, being done by a dealer. Maybe I am misunderstanding just what was done.

I had to chuckle at the “land of almost right” yesterday I had to grab a couple different bolts out of the bin for an exhaust clamp for a 4640 that was half the price but was sent with fine thread bolts and course thread lock nuts. It was 30 bucks less than Deere. And honestly available that day instead of waiting as the project is nearing completion. Other than that the clamp fit right someone just ordered the wrong hardware. So I was still very happy. But There’s a lot that can go wrong reverse engineering as well.

 

[Mcrafty1]

I had to chuckle at the “land of almost right” yesterday I had to grab a couple different bolts out of the bin for an exhaust clamp for a 4640 that was half the price but was sent with fine thread bolts and course thread lock nuts. It was 30 bucks less than Deere. And honestly available that day instead of waiting as the project is nearing completion. Other than that the clamp fit right someone just ordered the wrong hardware. So I was still very happy. But There’s a lot that can go wrong reverse engineering as well.

I agree, I should have been a little clearer when I posted, My tractor is a toy for when I retire...it might see 200 hrs. before I die if that, premium parts aren't high on my list. If I was a production farmer I would likely look at it a little differently. However I have had and still have Deere construction equipment and find many parts on those that are now obsolete from Deere and unavailable aftermarket....it's frustrating. I'm a one pony show and I'm only operating one piece at a time so newer equipment isn't in the cards. I'm also 69yo and won't be working any of it much longer so that plays a big part in it also. But it would be nice if Deere would allow others to manufacture some of the simple things as opposed to sitting on the patents and not producing the parts. jmho.

 

[sonnythomas]

Unless he can tell what the original was and what it is now, who knows what he had, thought it should be, or if they installed a smaller than OEM spec for him.

Again, the lawn tractor was bought new - the big battery came in it. Thought it lasted a lot longer than most.
New battery is a John Deere battery - CCA 425 - 15 month warranty.

 

[Jim.ME]

Again, the lawn tractor was bought new - the big battery came in it. Thought it lasted a lot longer than most.
New battery is a John Deere battery - CCA 425 - 15 month warranty.

With all respect, none of that tells the physical sizes (BCI group) of both of the batteries, which is what the question has been and the answer needed to tell if the original battery was the wrong one and the new one is correct one according to the parts catalog, not just what it looks like.

 

[DoubleO7]

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Having to remove the instrument panel side cover to remove the battery is normal. Cub Cadets required it 30 years ago. Doesn't take much mechanical skill to figure that out. The owners manual may even address it. The bill for work performed was reasonable and the dealer refunded the money for the normal extra work you didn't want so there's no reason to gripe about Deere.

What model cub cadet requires removal of the instrument panel?

 

[Martin Seebach]

FTC sues John Deere over farmers' right to repair tractors
6 hours ago — The lawsuit accuses Deere of withholding access to its technology and best repair tools and of maintaining monopoly power over many repairs.

I wonder if my reports were noted. The dealership nearest me does real good job of ripping off people on any John Deere equipment.
My X540 lawn tractor. New, it came with an oversize battery. No way could I get out. So, took it dealer for a new battery and oil filter and oil change. $365.00. I blew a gasket. The dealership has a Gold, Silver and Bronze levels for repairs and whatever. I got stuck with a Gold. Gold has oil, filter, check hydraulics, grease job and sharpens blades. I raised the roof. Got some relief, $100 and more. Still wasn't satisfied, I paid the bill and wrote all over how I got shafted. Phone call from dealer - Promised another $75 back or $75 off on next time having it serviced. I wanted cash and got it.
The thing was, I told the clerk not to touch the deck or blades. I had heck of time getting the deck adjusted to get real good cut. I told the person that called that I have farm, you think I don't know to grease things?

X540 had the computer go. I think it has a 2000 hour warranty. It wouldn't start. No juice to that thingy in the bottom of the carburetor bowl. I got stuck with carburetor rebuild and more. $750.00. And my air filter cover was missing. I was told it didn't have one. They cut wiring harness that shouldn't even been touched. I tore into them right there. By the time they took cost off for I was charged $475.00. I didn't the $75 off that I was promised.
Checked with my brother, he found that I wasn't getting juice to that thing in the bottom carb bowl. He blew up, told the cover was on the lawn tractor. Trip to the dealer. Repair person for lawn mowers wasn't there. I got after woman sectary. She looked up the part in the manual. She went out the repair area and found the cover under a bench. I told her that was the last time my lawn tractor will be there, and I'd junk it first.

Can't remember what I gave for it - $7000.00?

And they raised with moving manufacturing and high corp functions to Mexico. Deere John...

 

[Watthour]

...And Deere will automatically become 25% more expensive than the competition, not less. The "stupid" part of this is that, as a foreign manufacturer, they will still be required to conform to policy regarding operations in the U.S., including their franchised dealerships. I don't see Deere & Co. winning this one in any manner, other than bragging about how they "won" as they watch the business close.