Fuse size for starter solenoid?

[John T]

An easy alternative to protect a circuit that is unlikely to fail/short but is there "just in case" is to use a "fusible link".

http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/fusible-link.shtml

X2 you see a lot of them in the automotive industry !!!!!!!!!!

John T

 

[Jim.ME]

Great info RJ thanks for your inputs, love this sparky chat !!!!!!!! While its been a longggggggggg time and codes may well change, during the time and in the jurisdiction where I last practiced at least (NEC had been adopted) the overcurrent protection device was used to protect the wire. HOWEVER in the case of motor loads if the motor was so equipped THE THERMAL OVERLOAD WAS WHAT PROTECTED THE MOTOR. IE the fuse protected the wire while the thermal overload protected the motor load. BUT THATS NOT THE END LOL For motors we may have had to use a Dual Element Time Delay Fuse to allow the motor to start due to the higher initial inrush current and today types of circuit breakers may be used (HACR is that right???)

EXACTLY AND SO TRUE (though some non sparkies, non electricians or non engineers may not have experience) a wires Ampacity depends on the conductor material and gauge,,,,,,,,,the type class and temperature rating of the insulation,,,,,,,,,,,,,the environment,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if the conductor is in free air (MUCH higher Ampacity) or if in raceway or jacketed etc etc etc FOR EXAMPLE AS I DESCRIBED TO OUR FRIEND GEORGE ABOVE 14 Gauge wire may possibly have an Ampacity of 20 Amps !!!!!!!! I cant say from here way too many unknowns

I enjoyed and appreciate your post even if it may bore others lol I think it may well have helped ....

Take care best wishes its a pleasure sparky chatting with you........

John T Longgggggggggg retired and rusty EE so NO warranty, dont take my word for it, where fire and life safety are concerned CONSULT PROFESSIONALS AND THE NEC ..........

To all,

What exactly does the NEC have to do with the 12-volt wiring of a Massey Ferguson 230 tractor? Especially after the OEM wiring scheme was posted. Ever wonder why people get confused at times here?

 

[John T]

In my opinion if you guys want to squabble about an individuals willingness or lack there of to consent to your urging then you should move your conversation to the PM feature.

X2 I try my very best to help George with his questions and thats all I can do lol

Best wishes nice chatting with you

John T

 

[John T]

I never heard of calling a solenoid an inductive load when using DC voltage.
Unlike capacitors, the current in a solenoid takes a short time to become full current, no surge current.
Capacitors are the opposite.
I may be wrong. I don't agree. No need for a slow blow.
What does JohnT say?

I bought 100 20 amp fuses from Amazon for about $5.
I don't think the flat fuses used today in cars and trucks are slow blow.

What does JohnT say?

EE 101 An Inductor opposes a sudden change in current while a Capacitor opposes a sudden change in Voltage.

Great job George you got this !!!!!!!!! Go to the head of the class !!!!!!

John T

 

[used red MN]

X2 I try my very best to help George with his questions and thats all I can do lol

Best wishes nice chatting with you

John T

John T, since you gave the appreciated cordial reply, I will add a reply I was going to make to you but didn’t. I wasn’t sure if you read to the end of the OP reply #7. He did get it to run but only with a Jerry-rigged wire he apparently shorts to the battery terminal. So I’m telling you in case you didn’t notice his problem is not fixed. He sure was provided a lot of info to swim through, to attempt a fix a tractor starting circuit.

 

[John T]

To all,

What exactly does the NEC have to do with the 12-volt wiring of a Massey Ferguson 230 tractor? Especially after the OEM wiring scheme was posted. Ever wonder why people get confused at times here?

Hi Jim, great question I may not be able to answer as I haven't practiced or studied the NEC for years and things change lol

However back in my day the NEC had a lot to do with 12 volt or 120 or 480 volt wiring, regardless if in a Massey Ferguson or other brand of tractor. It had entire chapters dealing with wire types,,,,,,,,,,,,,wire material (copper or aluminum etc) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,types of insulation,,,,,,,,,,,class and temperature rating of insulation, wire ampacity based on enclosure or if in free air, AND MOST IMPORTANT THE AMPACITY OF WIRE be it in a Massey or a home or factory. The NEC and all its tables charts and graphs dealing with a wires current carrying capacity REGARDLESS if in a home or tractor was like the Bible for electricians and engineers.

AGAIN this may or may not be true today NO WARRANTY dont take my word for it, consult current professionals and trades BUT HEY I TRY MY BEST TO HELP !!!!!

Nice chatting with you Jim, best wishes you take care now

John T

 

[John T]

John T, since you gave the appreciated cordial reply, I will add a reply I was going to make to you but didn’t. I wasn’t sure if you read to the end of the OP reply #7. He did get it to run but only with a Jerry-rigged wire he apparently shorts to the battery terminal. So I’m telling you in case you didn’t notice his problem is not fixed. He sure was provided a lot of info to swim through, to attempt a fix a tractor starting circuit.

Thanks Red, I try to be polite and cordial at least, Im here to help the best I can but so rusty and out dated being long retired

Best wishes God Bless

John T

 

[Jim.ME]

Hi Jim, great question I may not be able to answer as I haven't practiced or studied the NEC for years and things change lol

However back in my day the NEC had a lot to do with 12 volt or 120 or 480 volt wiring, regardless if in a Massey Ferguson or other brand of tractor. It had entire chapters dealing with wire types,,,,,,,,,,,,,wire material (copper or aluminum etc) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,types of insulation,,,,,,,,,,,class and temperature rating of insulation, wire ampacity based on enclosure or if in free air, AND MOST IMPORTANT THE AMPACITY OF WIRE be it in a Massey or a home or factory. The NEC and all its tables charts and graphs dealing with a wires current carrying capacity REGARDLESS if in a home or tractor was like the Bible for electricians and engineers.

AGAIN this may or may not be true today NO WARRANTY dont take my word for it, consult current professionals and trades BUT HEY I TRY MY BEST TO HELP !!!!!

Nice chatting with you Jim, best wishes you take care now

John T

I do not disagree that there is info, included in the NEC, that is involved in sizing fuses, conductor capacities, etc. That same info is not NEC exclusive; it has been used in design of many systems including automotive/equipment electrical systems. The info I find says the NEC does not cover installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles (which would include trucks, tractors, etc.), other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles. (I do understand it has or is getting info added for EVs and charging stations.) It is fine to discuss but I believe the engineers at Massey did that homework for the wiring diagrams they published, no need to study the NEC and get into all the theory behind fuses and wire sizes; just to put the starting circuit back to match the original MF drawings.

Since I gave him a rundown of the starting circuit wiring drawing from a MF sister tractor which he needed to repair his tractor, in post #2, then I further clarified where that info (including manufacturer's fuse amperage and wire gauge) came from in post #6, is all of this theory and NEC discussion helping him or muddying the water in regard to his issue? (And none of it applies to his question of what controls the safety interlock on his MF230.)

Just my opinion each is welcome to their own.

Best regards
Jim

 

[John T]

I do not disagree that there is info, included in the NEC, that is involved in sizing fuses, conductor capacities, etc. That same info is not NEC exclusive; it has been used in design of many systems including automotive/equipment electrical systems. The info I find says the NEC does not cover installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles (which would include trucks, tractors, etc.), other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles. (I do understand it has or is getting info added for EVs and charging stations.) It is fine to discuss but I believe the engineers at Massey did that homework for the wiring diagrams they published, no need to study the NEC and get into all the theory behind fuses and wire sizes; just to put the starting circuit back to match the original MF drawings.

Since I gave him a rundown of the starting circuit wiring drawing from a MF sister tractor which he needed to repair his tractor, in post #2, then I further clarified where that info (including manufacturer's fuse amperage and wire gauge) came from in post #6, is all of this theory and NEC discussion helping him or muddying the water in regard to his issue? (And none of it applies to his question of what controls the safety interlock on his MF230.)

Just my opinion each is welcome to their own.

Best regards
Jim

Thanks Jim nice chat we’re having. Hey not being there and not knowing how Massey based their design the best we can all do is try our best to help. We agree the NEC may well have been the basis for determine wire and fuse selectors. As far as helping or confusing the original poster I have no idea lol. It always happens anytime there’s an elec or legal question like everyone lay or professional weighs in and yes that may be confusing. Although I’m a retired EE I will always try my best to help and you or I can’t help if there are so many lay or professional answers it gets confusing grrrr. All any of us can do is try our best but we can’t control other answers and there’s so many fine people here like us just trying to help that any electrical or legal question blows up lol but as an attorney and engineer I still try to help and will continue to do so.

PS similar if another person not the OP keeps asking maybe an unrelated question like solenoids and inductors above I still try to help even if that causes more confusion. Maybe if a new unrelated wuestion is asked a new thread should be started but if someone asks I still try to help. If no one asks more I don’t answer more but often they do

Best wishes God bless you and yours

John T