general comment about change re: 6v conv thread

[souNdguy]

I was originally going to leave this comment as a reply in the "6v conversion" thread but decided to make it a thread of it's own, in case it bloats and attracts alot of flies, so as not to spoil the other thread..

There was a comment made about some people oposing change. and the general comments about EI vs points, and generator vs alternator, 6v vs 12v.. etc.

This thread isn't about which choice is better. This thread is merely about 'Choices'

Some people like points, some people like electronic ignition. why those choices?

Lots of different types of people on this board and in this hobby, business or what have you, with the old tractors.

You have the restoration enthusiasts who like their machine to be correct based on history.. thus having oem equipment, reguardless if some part of it might or might not work better.

You have the crowd that just really isn't into repair work, and just buys the machine and uses it like it is. some might even feel they lack the skills needed to convert an electrical or ignition system, so they leave 'well enough' alone.

You have the crowd that likes to tinker, and the crowd that likes to 'upgrade' to more modern components, as well as the people that know their way around a multi-meter and screw driver and don't mind a polished lump of aluminum hanging onthe side of a nice classic, as long as it starts everytime.

Still.. you've got the guys that can keep a 6v points machine running in a month of rain storms, and the guys with an alternator and ei who can't even get the machine started... some like a challange.. some are just plain 'challanged'....

All these people... they are not seperated .. they are mixed.

You have the guy that has a worker or business tractor. he could care less about it being refurbished.. he just needs it to start every time, with as little maintenance as possible ( cost) and needs to be able to be used by workers who may know nothing about any other type of electrical system other than what is in their car.

Youv'e got the collector or hobby enthusiast who likes to mess around, and doesn't mind if he has to slip a piece of paper thru his points every few months before he starts his machine... etc.

Choices are based on needs and expectations. Needs have scope of work,financial and time basis. Expectations are based on past experience and future needs.

A guy starting up a grass mowing business on a shoestring budget is looking at a classic or antique tractor as a way to lower his initial expenses. he wants the machine to start fast and run. since he's trying to mow as many pastures per daylight hour as he can.. downtime like pulling a piece of paper thru his points, or dinking with a wire costs him time, thus money.

Obviously relying on an antique as a bread winner has it's costs. 1, you want reliability and low downtime and low maintenance costs and time intervals, and you want low initial expense. those are hard to reconcile.. especially that last one. Generally speaking.. low maintenance, high quality and high reliability DON't usually have a 'low' cost

Everyone has a different priority level. what one person finds colelctable.. another person simply see's as a tool.

lots of thought process going on in all these different people.

those that *CAN* keep a 6v point system running tip top 'wonder' why those that *CAN'T* or *WON'T* will go to the expense to buy the parts needed to go to 12v and an alternator.

( battery, brackets, alternator, wire harness, new coil and or resistor, ei module, new lamps..( except UD ) and the time invested to install )

VS learning how to keep the system running. IE.. why buy 350$ of parts, vs picking up some new maintenance habits.

On the flip side.. you have those that wonder why someone would *WANT* to clean and regap a set of points instead of simply paying a few hundred bucks and be done with it.

same coin.. 2 different sides . not always a financial issue either, I think alot of it has to do with tool tolerance. I call it tinker tolerance. IE.. some have no tolerance for waving a wrench over a machine for a couple minutes in order to keep it working, and a large cost savings. on the other hand.. some people feel it's a good 'investment' to not have to wave the wrench. etc. all different points of view.

not quite the same topic.. but similar..

I'm kinda surprised those that bang hard on the ei and 12v don't forgo one step and just aim at diesel.... no points or ei.. and 12v standard.

just some general thoughts and musings.

soundguy

 

[Devious]

I knew I was right about you . Devious

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 09:47:56 08/10/10) I'm kinda surprised those that bang hard on the ei and 12v don't forgo one step and just aim at diesel.... no points or ei.. and 12v standard.

soundguy

Pretty lucid and layed back there this morning Chris :shock: As for diesel I made that my power plant of choice for all my machinery years ago. And it wasn't based on my dislike of points and/or plugs - they just run longer. I almost passed on the recently acquired Kubota GS2460 lawn tractor because it was a gasser but the price was just too good. And it's not some lawn mower motor on steroids - same automotive style short block as the diesel with a gasoline top end... Right now the only thing I own with points is a pair of N's. And since I plan on it being a worker the eyeless '51 will in all likleyhood get lights all around and converted to 12V when the 6V battery dies...

TOH

 

[old-9]

Great,well thought out post!

 

[lha]

I agree that if a person buys a tractor or anything,they can and should do anything they want to do with it.My thinking is that I can go out in 20* weather or whatever,and old '41 starts up with no probs at all,and always has,so why change it to 12v.It has 6v lights which I've never used,except to see if they still work,no other reason to have acc power.I see a lot of posts about 12v conv,but to be fair,also about probs with 6v also.I guess I just like it the way it is.No prob if anyone wants to go 8v,12v,or pretty soon someone will have 16v and 24v systems.My$.02.---lha

 

[JMOR]

Soundguy, that about covers it. The controversy is generally brought about by those who want to convert everyone to their way of thinking, kinda like with religion & politics. It generally has little to do with points, EI, gens, alts, etc.....it is the "mind conversion" that is the problem!

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Well said.

All I can add is a personal example.

My three working 8N's, 6v w/ points, all start & run just fine thanks to my application of tip # 40: maintain the equipment! Likewise w/ my 10 yr old van & 6 yr old pick up truck. The difference is that I maintain the tractors & my wallet maintains the vehicles. I have no desire or interest (or tools or knowledge) to maintain any new vehicle. There are, as you point out, many people who apply that same logic to a 60 year old tractor. They want it to start & run when they turn the key & it's easier to them to convert it 12v. As long as an informed decision is made, then it is simply a matter of personal choice based upon the expected use of the tractor.
50 Tips

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. had some time on my hands and the fingers needed a workout this am.

I like my diesels. less maintenance than a gasser.. though when somthing does finally go wrong. I'll likley be in the same boat as bruce.. IE.. paying someeone to fix them, as I don't have the skills i think I will need to wrench on a diesel. yet anyway..

soundguy

 

[Devious]

I am with you on the diesels Soundguy. Of course I have been trucking for yrs with diesel and understand them but I can see also where the gas Ns are much more finicky than a diesel would be in the right hands. IE clean filters etc. If I could stand the dollar gaff I would go up a couple of levels to diesel on my tractor but at my age and actual tractor need it is not the trick to do now. (Unless a steal pops up sometime) Devious

 

[grhouse]

I agree totally in that it is about "Choices" and they are sometimes uninformed. I converted my 8N to 12V based on advise and because it already had a 12V battery but still had the generator in it. I wish now I had the generator checked out when it quit running to see if it was good and simply repaired the problem rather than doing a complete conversion recommended by someone.
WHY? Because I would like to eventually restore this tractor to as close to original as possible and you cannot do that with 12V. But, I was very new, having just owned the tractor (my first) for a few days when it quit, and made a bad choice. I still have the generator and will have it tested and if it is good I will eventually, after I have gained the necessary knowledge, rewire and reconvert it as the last part of the restoration. But, I tend to be a purist in that regard.

By the way, if anyone wants to get rid of a working 6V battery you can send it my way . I'll even pay shipping.
Gene

 

[Hobo,NC]

I'm kinda surprised those that bang hard on the ei and 12v don't forgo one step and just aim at diesel.... no points or ei.. and 12v standard.

Don't understand the ration behind that statement :? little far out like in :evil: ,,, wonder why their are no 6V "KITS" available :?: Kits are what sell,,, tho I am not sure of the definitional of "kits",,, kits always seam to be short of sum'n...

 

[BigDawg]

Good Read.

Think I'm both. I like a challenge and I'm challenged as well.

Fact is I wouldn't begin to try what I'm doing without the advice I receive here.

Thanks,

BigDawg
WR Wisconsin

 

[don't_know_nothing]

To each their own as the saying goes. Owning these old tractors is like owning a motorcycle or car. You add accessories, lights, ground effects, radios, GPS... You tune it for gas mileage or you hot rod it out for horsepower anything your heart desires... Doing so makes it what you want & to fit what you need. When I bought my Harley the only thing that changed from factory was a Vance & Hines exhaust.. But now, Hmm let"s see, I"ve changed out the air filter, added back rest, front and back seat, added saddle bag guards, highway bars, grips, chromed out the handle bars, mirrors... I could go on and on... But the point is that the Harley was perfectly in working order and their was no reason to spend more money then I care to admit to change those parts out. But it was my choice to. Some will like and some will dislike what changes I made, doesn"t matter and they can talk till they are blue in the face because I"d do the same thing again if I had to do it over...

So make your choice to what you want and tune out the complainers. They are entitled to their opinion... even if they are wrong...

 

[souNdguy]

my point was those that dislike 6v and points for the reliability and maintenance issues. why not instead just get a diesel machine.

soundguy

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 17:00:21 08/10/10) my point was those that dislike 6v and points for the reliability and maintenance issues. why not instead just get a diesel machine.

soundguy

Do they make a kit to convert a N to a stink'n diesel....

 

[pikewi]

Great post Chris.
You are pretty wise for a younger fella

 

[Devious]

I toll ya so. Devious

 

[HCooke]

Very well written. I doubt that it will be the last we here on the subject, but I don't think there's anything left to say.

 

[souNdguy]

no kit that I know.. except that people like stauffer and some others have sure put in some pretty wild re-power engines in them.

i do know a guy with a perkins diesel in one, and another guy with some jap diesel in one. all custom jobs of course.

what I meant about the diesel, is since most of these old tractors all cost the same.. IE.. 1500-3500$ pretty much buys you the gambit from 9n thru the 00/01 series.. and even a rough 3 cyl. I'm surprised that for the similar money why some even bother with a gasser, and don't just buy a oil burner straight out.. there are deffinately a few here that despise points enough.. yet still for some reason buy machines with them..

soundguy

 

[John (TR)]

while it may not have been clear my point as made from the other post "neither works forever if neglected, who cares what each person chooses lets just help them do it right".

Wasn't promoting one or the other, just taking a swing at those who always try to talk people out of converting to 12 volt. I have several of each for different reasons, both work and both have to be installed correctly.

 

[souNdguy]

And for the correct reasons.

For instance if you have a poorly maintained machine that is not a reliable starter on 6v, and you are being led to 12v as the fix, then you need to realize that the real fix, in most cases, is correct maintenance, whether or not you decide to also go to 12v or not.

soundguy

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Yep. Plenty of posts around here from folks who have a problem w/ it starting on 6v & automatically assume that 12v is the cure. Chances are if it won't start on 6v, it will only be a matter of time before it won't start on 12v either.

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. better to treat root cause vs symptom.. even if you do the 12v conversion later on.. etc.

soundguy

 

[John (TR)]

I've come into a period in my life that is awfully busy both at work and personally. Once things settle down I intend to do an electrical page on my site and we will help 6 and 12 volters alike. I don't personally own an EI unit but would love to see one.

 

[awhtx]

I have 2 of each- gas (851,971) and diesel (861D, 5000D). I returned the 851 to 6V from 12V because it's a collectible and the 971 had never been converted. The 861D has been converted from a Ford generator to a Ford alternator. The 5000D still has the Lucas generator.
I may be completely sphincterally challenged about the subject but there is nothing that rubs me the wrong way like someone describing their tractor as "Restored" and the first thing I see is the &@$% GM 10SI hanging off the side of the engine. That ain't "Restored" in my book.

 

[John (TR)]

agreed.

 

[Ultradog MN]

Good post Soundguy. Perhaps the best on this subject so far. Thanks.
Put the info out there for the folks to make up their own mind about it. Is he willing/skilled enough to learn to fix his electrics? Both are adequate. One is better. I'll let you choose which is right for you.

For the detractors, naysayers, backbiters and all those who know more about electrics than me: (I'd rather replace a clutch and seals than figure out why my filthy genny aint working. Again!) I will continue to advocate for 12V and Ei.
Come what may.

Now on the lights and stuff. LOL
I still don't have a single working light on any of my tractors. wince
But I aint been driving them at night lately either...

As for getting rid of them darned sparkies altogether -

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 21:40:02 08/10/10) Good post Soundguy. Perhaps the best on this subject so far. Thanks.
Put the info out there for the folks to make up their own mind about it. Is he willing/skilled enough to learn to fix his electrics? Both are adequate. One is better. I'll let you choose which is right for you.

For the detractors, naysayers, backbiters and all those who know more about electrics than me: (I'd rather replace a clutch and seals than figure out why my filthy genny aint working. Again!) I will continue to advocate for 12V and Ei.
Come what may.

Now on the lights and stuff. LOL
I still don't have a single working light on any of my tractors. wince
But I aint been driving them at night lately either...

As for getting rid of them darned sparkies altogether -

<img src="http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/Ultradog/P1010018-2.jpg">

Well, I can assure you that there are a LOT more posters out there that can deal with ignition than with injector pumps! :!: I and perhaps you and a handful of others can do both, but for the vast numbers, injection pumps are in Jackson's Neverland!

 

[ooticamitica]

i have a 6 volts battery that i bought when i got my n and only used it for a few days until i tore into it for the restore im doing, i have a 12 volt conversion kit and dont need the battery so email me if you are intereste, [email protected]

 

[36 Coupe]

Very good point but I dont have 150 bucks for a ss ignition or 300 bucks to buy 12 volts parts.Im gonna buy a new battery for my boat motor today 80 bucks.200 bucks is going for monthly bills.My tractor runs fine on 6 volts, points are on year 24.I still owe 1200 bucks on town taxes.At 73 I only buy things I need and can use right away.Diesel tractors are nice until they wear and dont have enough compression to start or need a new injection pump.My JD H will run on kerosene if I want to see black smoke.

 

[souNdguy]

I think the bulk of the people that go for the EI's are those that lack the skills to properly maintain a points based system, and are thus always having to tweak or dink with them, or they are lured into the belief that" It's the way to go" kind of mentality. Then there are the others that DO really WANT the EI, and go for it.

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

delphi huh? looks like a similar rotary pump as is on my 7610s.

what's that one off of?

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. that aluminum wart growing out the side of the engine does tend to detract from a 'restoration'..

soundguy

 

[Hobo,NC]

I Will make this as EZ as possible,,,, so gonna pick a EZ one,,, real EZ as EZ as it gets...

1) How many of the nay Sayers have are can diagnosis a GM first generation distributor HEI system no spark condition.... If you can what tools are needed...

2) if a point system is so good why did manufacturers go to it on non emission compliant machines,,,, tractors, small engines etc....

3) if emissions were the excuses for EI use what are how does EI affect emissions (what comes out the tail pipe)

If a nay Sayer how many will admit they have no I.D. how to diagnosis a EI system ,,, if a nay Sayer how many will admit they have no I.D. how to diagnosis a 12V GM 10SI alternator that's as EZ as it gets....

Sorry earning a boy scout merit badge are having one in your possession does not count

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:49:29 08/11/10) I Will make this as EZ as possible,,,, so gonna pick a EZ one,,, real EZ as EZ as it gets...

1) How many of the nay Sayers have are can diagnosis a GM first generation distributor HEI system no spark condition.... If you can what tools are needed...

2) if a point system is so good why did manufacturers go to it on non emission compliant machines,,,, tractors, small engines etc....

3) if emissions were the excuses for EI use what are how does EI affect emissions (what comes out the tail pipe)

If a nay Sayer how many will admit they have no I.D. how to diagnosis a EI system ,,, if a nay Sayer how many will admit they have no I.D. how to diagnosis a 12V GM 10SI alternator that's as EZ as it gets....

Sorry earning a boy scout merit badge are having one in your possession does not count

obo, I'm not a nay-sayer, so I guess I don't get to play. But if I did, I would first look at the rotor and stick a nail in the D hole.

 

[souNdguy]

wow it is sure hard to follow these threads the way they get seperated!

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

does it coult if I can build a type of electronic ignition from radio shack parts?

soundguy

 

[JMOR]

Built this when I was still a student, when silicon was still an infant & the only power transistors big enough for the job were germanium. Still works some 46 years later.

 

[souNdguy]

sweet. are those lil wire inductors with the fero ceramic cores?

when I was in high school, our school was near an industrial complex that housed 3 defense contractors. at some point in time throughout school, one or all of them were 'partners in education' with our school, and we got all their lab grade equipment when it was 'outdated'.. including calibrated power supplies, bench and desktop o scopes and meters.

also got boxes of those large form factor resistor, and spools of vinyl insulated aluminum wire.

brings back memories seeing components like that!

soundguy

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 12:31:56 08/11/10) Built this when I was still a student, when silicon was still an infant & the only power transistors big enough for the job were germanium. Still works some 46 years later.

OK Jesse - now tell them the strobe story you told me....

TOH

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 18:31:17 08/11/10)

(quoted from post at 12:31:56 08/11/10) Built this when I was still a student, when silicon was still an infant & the only power transistors big enough for the job were germanium. Still works some 46 years later.

OK Jesse - now tell them the strobe story you told me....

TOH

Well, ok.........I'm not too proud to rat on myself! You fine folks need an evening laugh anyway. Guess I was born curious. If I didn't know how something worked, I just couldn't rest until I figured it out. So as a youngster, I had already built my own ham transmitter & had radio license before I was old enough for a drivers license, so I knew a little (remember that 'little knowledge' thing..). I saved up enough to buy a strobe/electronic flash (big purchase for me then), took it home, took a few pictures with it attached to my camera and could hear it sing following the flash as it recharged the big-ol- capacitor that dumped into the flash tube, and got to wondering what that circuit looked like that took 3.8 volt battery & juiced up that HV flash tube & a bit curious about the 'audio', too. So I flashed it with power off (to discharge that big-ol-capacitor) and stared removing screws. Slipped covers off so very carefully, just in case there were springs or something that I didn't want to fall or jump out such that I might not be able to figure out how to put it back. Now here I am, gingerly holding this now delicate loosely assembled cluster of parts, twisting & turning it, looking, examining, etc. and in some what less than a flash, as my fingers found some metallic path that ultimately wound up being attached to that big-ol cap, the involuntary muscles took over an tossed that brand new expensive sucker far across the room where is hit the wall and came to rest on the floor. Just a few more lose pieces now that about a millisecond before. I learned that all the cap energy doesn't go into the tube (somewhere down around 100 volts it ceased the arc-discharge, thus leaving that 100 on the cap. In normal operation that gets pumped back up to 400v, but it doesn't matter as muscles react strongly to 100 volts. It was a little 2 transistor inverter & the frequency rattled the transformer core a little (singing). Some learn be doing, some by mistakes, some by the mistakes of others, some by mistakes at someone else's expense. Those with a dull life, learn a little from the sidelines. Life should be one adventure after another. :lol:

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 21:12:29 08/11/10)

(quoted from post at 18:31:17 08/11/10)

(quoted from post at 12:31:56 08/11/10) Built this when I was still a student, when silicon was still an infant & the only power transistors big enough for the job were germanium. Still works some 46 years later.

OK Jesse - now tell them the strobe story you told me....

TOH

Life should be one adventure after another. :lol:

AMEN brother - already knew what was coming and it still provoked a smile. You write pretty well - must have made you take a couple English classes along with all the engineering :shock:

TOH

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 07:19:05 08/12/10)

(quoted from post at 21:12:29 08/11/10)

(quoted from post at 18:31:17 08/11/10)

(quoted from post at 12:31:56 08/11/10) Built this when I was still a student, when silicon was still an infant & the only power transistors big enough for the job were germanium. Still works some 46 years later.

OK Jesse - now tell them the strobe story you told me....

TOH

Life should be one adventure after another. :lol:

AMEN brother - already knew what was coming and it still provoked a smile. You write pretty well - must have made you take a couple English classes along with all the engineering :shock:

TOH

ep, that English writing class was killing me * my GPA. So bad that I was practically beat down into just sitting & not participating in class, until one day, sitting silently, I suddenly realized that the instructor went ga ga whenever some student would regurgitate her previously expressed views on a topic. After that I kept my opinions to myself, made sure that any circle, ring, or similar shape was somehow connected to $ex in my writings, and became a "paraphraser" in that class & walked away with a good grade. In the years since it has become apparent that most humans like to hear their own thoughts repeated.........funny how simple things in life can be when you take time to stop talking and listen/observe a little.

 

[souNdguy]

always good to find a niche in a hard class. I remember 2nd year foreighn language studies...wasn't a particularly fun class.. and I deffinately really wasn't interested in speaking another language other than english ( maybee should have learned farsi??? ).. in any case.. found out the instructor was a 'den mother' for a cubscout pack.. and they did lots of arts and crafts that involved mostly painting little wodden cutout things... she was having a problem getting enough wooden cutout things to do her pack meetings. I had been in construction shop for 3 ys and was on good terms with the coach that was running the wood shop. I'm not sure how I managed it.. but I somehow popped the 'indecent proposal' to the language teach. IE.. let me go cutout all your wood 'dongles' during class time it flew!! I made sure I turned out some high quality dongles too.. sanded.. cut correctly.. drilled correctly.. etc.. all the little nose miners had to do was stick in the dowel rods or tie the strings on and paint or whatever they did with them.

work smarter.. not harder... or.. find a way to use a skill you already have..

soundguy

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

"Those with a dull life, learn a little from the sidelines. Life should be one adventure after another."

In that same vein, I am taking a a couple of welding classes this autumn through my employer, the local community college. I will teach history by day at Blinn College and take welding by night. I assume I will get burned, but tinkering on machines and using them compels me to learn this skill. I hope to be good enough; I know practice will make me better; and I am really looking forward to the two-night-a-week format. They tell me I will use stick and wire feed welding.

In a similar thought, I employed a hs graduate student this summer to help around the place, and the thing I noticed about him was that he worked hard, but you had to tell him over and over again what to do. The schools he attended, and possibly his family, had stunted his curiosity and initiative. He would not do more than the minimum most of the time because he was afraid of going too far. He was not lazy, but after the first week, and he knows how I operate he should have had no such inhibitions.

Just some comments and thoughts.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:37:53 08/12/10) "Those with a dull life, learn a little from the sidelines. Life should be one adventure after another."

In that same vein, I am taking a a couple of welding classes this autumn through my employer, the local community college. I will teach history by day at Blinn College and take welding by night. I assume I will get burned, but tinkering on machines and using them compels me to learn this skill. I hope to be good enough; I know practice will make me better; and I am really looking forward to the two-night-a-week format. They tell me I will use stick and wire feed welding.

In a similar thought, I employed a hs graduate student this summer to help around the place, and the thing I noticed about him was that he worked hard, but you had to tell him over and over again what to do. The schools he attended, and possibly his family, had stunted his curiosity and initiative. He would not do more than the minimum most of the time because he was afraid of going too far. He was not lazy, but after the first week, and he knows how I operate he should have had no such inhibitions.

Just some comments and thoughts.

ounds like somewhere along the way he missed out on a mentor with the philosophy of, "if you don't give them room to fail, you can't expect them to grow".

 

[souNdguy]

You will love it once you get welding. I'm a rank amateur myself.. but it opens up sooooo many possibilities.. being able to build your own brackets and whatnot.

soundguy