Generator output

[Gwiz]

Ford 5000 diesel with weak battery, engine running at pto speed. Would you expect the generator to illuminate 4 headlights for more than one pass around the field?
James

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Yes, I would personally expect it.

What does the ammeter show when you are running all the lights? If it is not on the charge side of the scale, you've got a problem.

 

[Janicholson]

This from John T

1) For a good working Gen to get to and charge the battery, it has to have a path usually from the Gens ARM post,,,,, ,,,,To and through the Cutout Relay (between its GEN and BAT terminals, regardless if on a VR or Relay),,,,, ,,,Up to the Load (NOT to battery) side of the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,To and through the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,,From BAT side of Ammeter to ungrounded battery terminal, often via the starter lug post. Is yours wired that way or equivalent ??? The ammeter should read hot battery voltage on BOTH terminals, does yours??? Even if an ammeter were stuck (but still continuous) as RPM increases the battery voltage should rise from 12.6 to near 14 volts and/or the lights glow brighter (half that on 6 volt systems). Have you tried that in case the ammeter isnt working right?????

2) If the above is so, the BAT terminal on the VR or Cutout Relay MUST ALWAYS READ HOT BATTERY VOLTAGE. Does yours??? If not, the Gen cant get to and charge the battery.

3) The Gen to VR (if it has one) wiring is as follows:

BAT on VR to ammeters load (NOT battery) side

ARM (or GEN) on VR to Gens Armature post.

FLD on VR to Gens Field post.

(L) Load (if you have a 4 wire VR) up to BAT supply input terminal on switch to feed loads like lights and ignition.

WIRING ON CUTOUT RELAYS: They wire BAT side to ammeters Load terminal,,,,, GEN side to gens Armature post. On cutout relay systems, the Gens Field post is wired to the light switch where it gets a dead ground for high charge or a resistive ground for low charge. Therefore, there must be a good connection from the Gens Field post up to the switch PLUS the switch is good and its well grounded !!!!! !!

4. THE GEN AND VR OR CUTOUT RELAY MUST BE WELL GROUNDED AND THE BELT GOOD N TIGHT. If any doubt, run a ground wire from the grounded battery post or clean solid frame member direct to the Gen and see what happens????? ????? ????? ????? ????

NOW, if the Gen and VR are grounded,,,,,all is wired correct,,,,, ,,BAT terminal on VR or Cutout Relay is HOT,,,,, ,,Belt is tight,,,,, ,,,Ammeter is good n continuous n works but she wont charge, have you had the batteries tested lately????? Is there electrolyte above all the plates and no cells have a gray or milky appearance????? A bad battery may not accept a charge you know!!!!! !! If the battery checks okay, proceed below to see if its a Gen or VR problem (AFTER you have insured the wiring per the above)

TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM

5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isnt well grounded.

b) IF ITS A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isnt well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING

6. If she still dont charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isnt working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct.

7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still dont charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself.

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post and have the Field Post dead grounded to frame, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator likely okay). Then, if you next remove the Fields ground and it speeds up some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem. The hot battery voltage may be taken off the VR's BAT terminal or the starter post or the battery itself for this test.

9. Typical Gen problems may be the brushes are worn down or the hold down spring assemblies are stuck/corroded/dirty and arent pushing the brushes tight down against the commutator. Check those things out. Worse may be bad fields or armature etc. Air and WD 40 etc can clean and free them, the hold downs must be free n snap and hold the brushes DOWN TIGHT and they cant be worn down too low.

SUMMARY: Check the wiring,,,,,the grounds,,,,, insure BAT on VR or Relay is hot,,,,, ,check battery (maybe load tested and Specific Gravity checked),,,,, ,,,good tight belt,,,,, ,insure ammeter is continuous (BOTH sides HOT),,,,, see if battery voltage rises above 12.6 (half that for 6 volt system) and/or light glow brighter,,,,, ,,,do the Field and cutout relay VR by pass checks,,,,, ,,insure the Gens brushes arent worn down and the hold down springs are free n clean and push the brushes down tight,,,,, ,,,,,check the connections,,,,, ,,,try the Gen Motor Test to see if its good.

You may just have a bad battery or bad ground or connection if the Gen and VR or relay are okay. Good Luck n God Bless, let us all know.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired Electrical Engineer

 

[Steve@Advance]

It would depend on the load vs the generator output. If the battery is bad, it may be hogging all the power.

Try a known good fully charged battery and see what happens.

Adding extra high power incandescent or halogen lights may be pushing it to the limit already.

 

[sotxbill]

Its... a 22 amp max genny... each head light can draw 2.5 amps, so figure 10 amps for 4 headlights So in theory yes, it should work... There are some dual beam headlights that can draw 85 watts with both beams on, so you can pull up to 7 amps per bulb in which case you would not be able to power all 4 dual beam lights. (ge4467)

but many times the battery has a bad or very low cell and the battery is taking 18 amps all by itself so then the headlights will be dim..

Or the requlator is bad and not properly connecting the armature to the battery, or the field contacts are also dirty, not energizing the generator or letting go to full output...

or the brushes in the generator are worn out and its not putting out more than 6 amps.

Then there are the bad connections in the cables at the various and many places...

or a burnt out generator warning light that does not let the vr turn on correctly???

But I would check the battery first as thats the problem every 3 to 5 years or so. A bad battery can eventually destroy the vr and the generator.

 

[sotxbill]

Just remembered that there were SOME or a FEW tractors that were shipped with the earlier 11amp generators, so that makes running 4 lights even more iffy.. if the back of your generator is closed, you have an 11 amp generator and 11 amp vr. I have not seen on in person but they do exist out there.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Yes the generator on a tractor of that vintage should keep up with the 4 lights AND have some capacity left over to charge the battery when operated at working RPM. I have zero experiance with Fords but could be A or B circuits if they have Autolite generators. Big difference in procedures to test. Could be a lot of things. Check the simple, loose belt? broken wires, clean connections. Probabaly be more productive than chasing guesses made here until there has been some basic testing done and questions answered.

 

[John T]

Would you expect the generator to illuminate 4 headlights for more than one pass around the field?

Of course YES Subject to: 1) Battery condition and its State of Charge 2) Generator and charging systems quality and condition HOW MANY CHARGING AMPS IT CAN DELIVER ?? 3) Total current draw such as lights ignition etc

Is there a working ammeter and whats it showing ?????

Any idea of the battery voltage A) When setting ???? (12.6 fully charged at rest and stabilized) and B) Engine running at fast RPM (at least 13 up to 14+) ????

If battery voltage isnt rising at fast RPM the charging system may be bad and/or battery totally shot

John T

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:54:55 12/18/23) This from John T

1) For a good working Gen to get to and charge the battery, it has to have a path usually from the Gens ARM post,,,,, ,,,,To and through the Cutout Relay (between its GEN and BAT terminals, regardless if on a VR or Relay),,,,, ,,,Up to the Load (NOT to battery) side of the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,To and through the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,,From BAT side of Ammeter to ungrounded battery terminal, often via the starter lug post. Is yours wired that way or equivalent ??? The ammeter should read hot battery voltage on BOTH terminals, does yours??? Even if an ammeter were stuck (but still continuous) as RPM increases the battery voltage should rise from 12.6 to near 14 volts and/or the lights glow brighter (half that on 6 volt systems). Have you tried that in case the ammeter isnt working right?????

2) If the above is so, the BAT terminal on the VR or Cutout Relay MUST ALWAYS READ HOT BATTERY VOLTAGE. Does yours??? If not, the Gen cant get to and charge the battery.

3) The Gen to VR (if it has one) wiring is as follows:

BAT on VR to ammeters load (NOT battery) side

ARM (or GEN) on VR to Gens Armature post.

FLD on VR to Gens Field post.

(L) Load (if you have a 4 wire VR) up to BAT supply input terminal on switch to feed loads like lights and ignition.

WIRING ON CUTOUT RELAYS: They wire BAT side to ammeters Load terminal,,,,, GEN side to gens Armature post. On cutout relay systems, the Gens Field post is wired to the light switch where it gets a dead ground for high charge or a resistive ground for low charge. Therefore, there must be a good connection from the Gens Field post up to the switch PLUS the switch is good and its well grounded !!!!! !!

4. THE GEN AND VR OR CUTOUT RELAY MUST BE WELL GROUNDED AND THE BELT GOOD N TIGHT. If any doubt, run a ground wire from the grounded battery post or clean solid frame member direct to the Gen and see what happens????? ????? ????? ????? ????

NOW, if the Gen and VR are grounded,,,,,all is wired correct,,,,, ,,BAT terminal on VR or Cutout Relay is HOT,,,,, ,,Belt is tight,,,,, ,,,Ammeter is good n continuous n works but she wont charge, have you had the batteries tested lately????? Is there electrolyte above all the plates and no cells have a gray or milky appearance????? A bad battery may not accept a charge you know!!!!! !! If the battery checks okay, proceed below to see if its a Gen or VR problem (AFTER you have insured the wiring per the above)

TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM

5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isnt well grounded.

b) IF ITS A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isnt well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING

6. If she still dont charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isnt working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct.

7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still dont charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself.

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post and have the Field Post dead grounded to frame, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator likely okay). Then, if you next remove the Fields ground and it speeds up some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wiring or battery or grounding problem. The hot battery voltage may be taken off the VR's BAT terminal or the starter post or the battery itself for this test.

9. Typical Gen problems may be the brushes are worn down or the hold down spring assemblies are stuck/corroded/dirty and arent pushing the brushes tight down against the commutator. Check those things out. Worse may be bad fields or armature etc. Air and WD 40 etc can clean and free them, the hold downs must be free n snap and hold the brushes DOWN TIGHT and they cant be worn down too low.

SUMMARY: Check the wiring,,,,,the grounds,,,,, insure BAT on VR or Relay is hot,,,,, ,check battery (maybe load tested and Specific Gravity checked),,,,, ,,,good tight belt,,,,, ,insure ammeter is continuous (BOTH sides HOT),,,,, see if battery voltage rises above 12.6 (half that for 6 volt system) and/or light glow brighter,,,,, ,,,do the Field and cutout relay VR by pass checks,,,,, ,,insure the Gens brushes arent worn down and the hold down springs are free n clean and push the brushes down tight,,,,, ,,,,,check the connections,,,,, ,,,try the Gen Motor Test to see if its good.

You may just have a bad battery or bad ground or connection if the Gen and VR or relay are okay. Good Luck n God Bless, let us all know.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired Electrical Engineer

If he does Step 5a his VR will immediately be trashed. Generalizations can do harm Advice should be given when advisor knows the specific tractor in question.

 

[John T]

As we and most others (especially us sparkies) here know if the Charging system is a
Class A or a Class B it makes a difference !!!!!!!

John T

 

[Geo-TH,In]

They make a clamp-on DC ammeter.
This is a cheapie clamp-on DC ammeter, it costs under $40 from Amazon.

This meter will tell you if your battery is charging or discharging when you turn the lights on.

You can spend more money on Clamp on meters.
I'm very impressed with how accurate this meter is
and all the things it can measure.
Take the guess work out of trouble shooting electrical problems, get a good meter.

 

[buickanddeere]

When installing a new battery, go with the larger diesel sized unit .
As others have asked . Is the battery drawing high current ? Is the generator outputting 22 amps .

5000 Serial Numbers
1965 C100000
1966 C124200
1967 C161300
1968 C190200
1969 C226000
1970 C257600
1971 C292100
1972 C327200
1973 C367300
1974 C405200
1975 C450700
1976 C490300


5000 Serial Location
Ford 5000 serial number location
Transmission, front upper-right corner, stamped into top of casting. Serial numbers for US-production Ford tractors shown.


Electrical
Ground negative
Charging system generator
Charging amps 22
Battery volts 12
Gas Battery AH 80
Diesel Battery AH 128