getting new tile

[caterpillar guy]

The water soaks down to the tile just like it does now. It just will not have those potholes that hold a bit of water. And yes it would still be wet like it is now just not have water standing on it. Land levelers are used around here by some . I helps to alleviate little dips that hold enough water to drown out a crop in those small spots holding water. Leveling is not as good as tile for draining subsurface water out to work land without it being to wet to work. Different types of crops and dirt need to be handled differently. Down in the gulf the dirt is different than the glacial soil found in most of the rest of the US north of there. Like the dirt around Dallas X and other areas where as it dries out the cracks go 20 feet and more and then when it rains some of the soil is carried down the cracks and over many years it is inverted so to speak from that action. The top soil is that deep. IF that happened here it would become all subsoil by the time it inverted like that. Probably any place that has deep topsoil with longer dry spells and then rain will do that just will vary with location and length of drys spells and rain intervals. I places in parts of the country with lots of irrigation they actually have land laser leveled so it slopes to one side with a ditch along the bottom side for the water to run to a tail water pit then pump that back over the field when it gets about full. this usually done when they use flood or corrugated irrigation as it is referred to in those areas. Folks from western KS and other locals know what I'm trying to explain.

 

[john in la]

if you level the field how will the water drain? you will not be able to farm it.

Glen we use ditches because our land is flat and our water table is high.
You putting your main tile down 7 feet.
Our land is so flat you would never find a spot to drain a tile 7 feet deep.
And even if you could you would hit water in a lot of spots at 7 feet deep.

On the other hand you use tile (or at least I speculate) because it is a one and done operation.
You do not have to take time away from your second job you have to build and maintain ditches.
You can also farm from road ditch to road ditch with no interference. (something we do not do)

First they take a field and section it off.
Between each field they build a ditch on the long side of the field.
Then they level it.
Then you plant the rows so the follow the long side of the field.
Any low spot or place that holds water gets a small ditch cut crossways across the rows to the ditch on the side.
They use a PTO driven ditcher to do this job.

I will add.
If you had 30 acres under water that is not a low spot.
That is a field in a bowl.
Cutting a ditch to cross the bowl rim will go a log way to draining that field.

 

[waugh621]

Glen we use ditches because our land is flat and our water table is high.
You putting your main tile down 7 feet.
Our land is so flat you would never find a spot to drain a tile 7 feet deep.
And even if you could you would hit water in a lot of spots at 7 feet deep.

On the other hand you use tile (or at least I speculate) because it is a one and done operation.
You do not have to take time away from your second job you have to build and maintain ditches.
You can also farm from road ditch to road ditch with no interference. (something we do not do)

First they take a field and section it off.
Between each field they build a ditch on the long side of the field.
Then they level it.
Then you plant the rows so the follow the long side of the field.
Any low spot or place that holds water gets a small ditch cut crossways across the rows to the ditch on the side.
They use a PTO driven ditcher to do this job.

I will add.
If you had 30 acres under water that is not a low spot.
That is a field in a bowl.
Cutting a ditch to cross the bowl rim will go a log way to draining that field.

Cutting ditches to drain a bowl may work in some parts of the country but around be bowles get tiles cause the rim may be multipule feet above the bottom. Yes a ditch could be made that could be farmed through but that would be a pretty good drit job, not when i can dig and lay 500' feet a day with a mini hoe.
Nate

 

[Fritz Maurer]

You could always level the field removing the low (wet) spot.
Around here they use laser level today.
In the past they had a trailer maybe 80 feet long with 3 grader blades under it.

Yes, that is true… but the low (wet) area has to be the highest part of the proposed swale in order for the water to run out of it. Which means any knolls in gentle rolling land have to be cut through (and shaped and feathered in to the field if this particular area is to remain in production) deeper and deeper until the desired waterway is reached.


Another problem is that as the swale gets deeper and deeper until there is no more topsoil, depending on how far you have to go to get rid of the water. Out by you, there may not be a place to put the water for miles, which is probably where your land plane comes in. Just fill in the low spots.

I’m not suggesting that you are wrong in the slightest. It’s all about location when you’re talking about water control. Case in point, you’re not going to get thrown out of any coffee shop in Ohio for putting pipes in the ground. Rather, it will initiate discussion because everyone wants to hear everyone else’s opinions. Especially by the Lake, we have lots of swamp grass.

The rail line came through in 1882 and made about 15 acres of our farm barely usable. If there was beans in there after October, forget them or pray for a freeze. There was no ditching or draining this water anywhere. My dad was in the construction industry so we have a lifetime supply of obsolete manholes on hand . We set a base and a cone, about a 6’ high assembly, next to a telephone pole out by the street. All the tiling converged at this point. Had the electric company install a meter on the pole to run a 2” submersible pump, and pumped the water about 100 ‘ away into the railroad ditch. Then just let the field fill up with water all winter as usual, then turn the pump beginning of April and let it cycle for a month. My dad was a big believer in open cut / lots of pipe bedding , and that place dried up quickly.

 

[john in la]

Yes, that is true… but the low (wet) area has to be the highest part of the proposed swale in order for the water to run out of it. Which means any knolls in gentle rolling land have to be cut through (and shaped and feathered in to the field if this particular area is to remain in production) deeper and deeper until the desired waterway is reached.


Another problem is that as the swale gets deeper and deeper until there is no more topsoil, depending on how far you have to go to get rid of the water. Out by you, there may not be a place to put the water for miles, which is probably where your land plane comes in. Just fill in the low spots.

I’m not suggesting that you are wrong in the slightest. It’s all about location when you’re talking about water control. Case in point, you’re not going to get thrown out of any coffee shop in Ohio for putting pipes in the ground. Rather, it will initiate discussion because everyone wants to hear everyone else’s opinions. Especially by the Lake, we have lots of swamp grass.

The rail line came through in 1882 and made about 15 acres of our farm barely usable. If there was beans in there after October, forget them or pray for a freeze. There was no ditching or draining this water anywhere. My dad was in the construction industry so we have a lifetime supply of obsolete manholes on hand . We set a base and a cone, about a 6’ high assembly, next to a telephone pole out by the street. All the tiling converged at this point. Had the electric company install a meter on the pole to run a 2” submersible pump, and pumped the water about 100 ‘ away into the railroad ditch. Then just let the field fill up with water all winter as usual, then turn the pump beginning of April and let it cycle for a month. My dad was a big believer in open cut / lots of pipe bedding , and that place dried up quickly.

I think we are getting somewhere now.
30 acres under water
gentle rolling land
I can see a pipe to drain a bowl field out the rim of the bowl
I am use to your field is the highest and lowest spot for miles.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

I would struggle to imagine how much replant I would have had without tile this spring. 20 acres per 80 comes to mind as that’s what the field that needs tile. That would not be very pleasant

 

[waugh621]

Yes, that is true… but the low (wet) area has to be the highest part of the proposed swale in order for the water to run out of it. Which means any knolls in gentle rolling land have to be cut through (and shaped and feathered in to the field if this particular area is to remain in production) deeper and deeper until the desired waterway is reached.


Another problem is that as the swale gets deeper and deeper until there is no more topsoil, depending on how far you have to go to get rid of the water. Out by you, there may not be a place to put the water for miles, which is probably where your land plane comes in. Just fill in the low spots.

I’m not suggesting that you are wrong in the slightest. It’s all about location when you’re talking about water control. Case in point, you’re not going to get thrown out of any coffee shop in Ohio for putting pipes in the ground. Rather, it will initiate discussion because everyone wants to hear everyone else’s opinions. Especially by the Lake, we have lots of swamp grass.

The rail line came through in 1882 and made about 15 acres of our farm barely usable. If there was beans in there after October, forget them or pray for a freeze. There was no ditching or draining this water anywhere. My dad was in the construction industry so we have a lifetime supply of obsolete manholes on hand . We set a base and a cone, about a 6’ high assembly, next to a telephone pole out by the street. All the tiling converged at this point. Had the electric company install a meter on the pole to run a 2” submersible pump, and pumped the water about 100 ‘ away into the railroad ditch. Then just let the field fill up with water all winter as usual, then turn the pump beginning of April and let it cycle for a month. My dad was a big believer in open cut / lots of pipe bedding , and that place dried up quickly.

We put a lot of those "pump basins" in every year. There is one guys who has a lot of work done by the company i work for we have put 3 in for him just this year the deepest was 10ish feet. We usually just burry a 15+ inch solid tile up/down and then just use a sawzall or whole saw to make holes to allow tile to run into it
Nate

 

[Brendon-KS]

What, then, was the western Kansas farmers solution to a wet spot? I don’t know the topography/ rainfall of western Kansas. Do you even have wet spots out there?

"Wet spot" and "western Kansas" aren't two terms you normally associate with each other due to the very dry climate. A low area might only cause problems in unusually wet years and in dry years (which are most of them) that spot might grow the best crops you have. For freakishly wet areas the low yield potential and relative low value (compared to the midwest) of the land would not justify spending much expense to drain it - you'd just farm around it.

 

[Bikinkawboy]

Think of tile this way. You spill a glass of water on your table top and even though some runs off onto the floor, some continues to set there. If you want to lay your Gutenberg bible on the table it will be ruined. If you wait for the table top to dry on its own before doing your bible study, it’s going to be several days.

If you spill a glass of water on your outside patio table with its expanded metal surface, the water runs through immediately and your Gutenberg bible is safe.

Tile help stabilize the water table in the field. It lowers it in the spring and crop roots go deep looking for moisture. Without tile, the roots stay shallow trying to stay above the perched (temporary or sporadic) water table. When dry weather comes, plant roots are down deep and in moist soil in the tiled field but at the dry surface in untiled fields.

Underground tile in the high clay soils we have in north central Missouri isn’t very effective. Our perched water table is 12-18” deep meaning you end up putting the tile below the tight clay layer that restricts water infiltration rather than on top of that layer. Forget putting tile in shallow, those are the same fields where wet falls have left the entire field with combine ruts 10-12 inches deep.

 

[paul]

Glen we use ditches because our land is flat and our water table is high.
You putting your main tile down 7 feet.
Our land is so flat you would never find a spot to drain a tile 7 feet deep.
And even if you could you would hit water in a lot of spots at 7 feet deep.

On the other hand you use tile (or at least I speculate) because it is a one and done operation.
You do not have to take time away from your second job you have to build and maintain ditches.
You can also farm from road ditch to road ditch with no interference. (something we do not do)

First they take a field and section it off.
Between each field they build a ditch on the long side of the field.
Then they level it.
Then you plant the rows so the follow the long side of the field.
Any low spot or place that holds water gets a small ditch cut crossways across the rows to the ditch on the side.
They use a PTO driven ditcher to do this job.

I will add.
If you had 30 acres under water that is not a low spot.
That is a field in a bowl.
Cutting a ditch to cross the bowl rim will go a log way to draining that field.

John what you do to drain ground would not make any sense and not work here.

Some of the best tile investment is putting tile on sidehills.

There is no way to level a field here. We have rolling hills, and potholes between the hills. One 40 acre field I have 13 small peaks and 14 wet spots between the peaks. The elevation change in that field is about 40 feet. None of the slopes is longer than maybe 100 feet.

We have a clay based soil, the topsoil is a mix of clay and organic matter, the subsoil about 3 feet down is a mix of yellow clay and whatever the glaciers mixed in 50k years ago, and about 30 feet down is a blue clay that does not flow water much at all. The blue clay goes down about 120 feet.

Water does not soak into the ground beyond the yellow clay, and it barely moves in the the yellow clay.

Water here needs to flow off sideways on the clay layer below ground, which creates many small micro springs in out feilds.

In the morning a field that looked dry can be wet again. The water actually moves up with capillary action and have to let the sun and wind dry it off again.

We can’t wait for water to ‘soak away’ here because it does not soak down into the ground.

Tile I put in 80 feet apart, many now are at 60 feet or less. Pattern tile. 4 inch tile that connect up in a network to the big main tile, 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 or 15 inch main tile that move the water to a ditch.

The goal is to get your ground to dry out to a depth of 3 feet in a couple weeks. So it can hold the next rain, and start drying out slowly again, making room for the next rain.

We couldn’t possibly put in ditches 80 feet apart, through rolling hills! Yikes.

Tile doesn’t work real well 7 feet deep, but it is put in that deep to get across the ridges between low spots in the field. So we can drain the low spots and the hillsides that bleed out water from the clay layers. Tile 2 feet deep often doesn’t last long (damaged being too shallow) and doesn’t drain a very wide area. Tile over 4 feet deep is slow to drain as it likely is too deep into the yellow clay and takes a long time to collect water.

Paul

 

[waugh621]

Think of tile this way. You spill a glass of water on your table top and even though some runs off onto the floor, some continues to set there. If you want to lay your Gutenberg bible on the table it will be ruined. If you wait for the table top to dry on its own before doing your bible study, it’s going to be several days.

If you spill a glass of water on your outside patio table with its expanded metal surface, the water runs through immediately and your Gutenberg bible is safe.

Tile help stabilize the water table in the field. It lowers it in the spring and crop roots go deep looking for moisture. Without tile, the roots stay shallow trying to stay above the perched (temporary or sporadic) water table. When dry weather comes, plant roots are down deep and in moist soil in the tiled field but at the dry surface in untiled fields.

Underground tile in the high clay soils we have in north central Missouri isn’t very effective. Our perched water table is 12-18” deep meaning you end up putting the tile below the tight clay layer that restricts water infiltration rather than on top of that layer. Forget putting tile in shallow, those are the same fields where wet falls have left the entire field with combine ruts 10-12 inches deep.

Other than the combine ruts what keeps you from tilling above or in that clay. Is deep ripping a common practice in your area? We dont usually lay pipe shallower than 18" but in some cases we will if we have to because we have some real tight clays too. Deep ripping is not a practice done around me unless the feild has not been tiled or the tile is busted and need repalced. Some will deep rip after beans before corn to loosen the soil.

 

[glennster]

v

Glen we use ditches because our land is flat and our water table is high.
You putting your main tile down 7 feet.
Our land is so flat you would never find a spot to drain a tile 7 feet deep.
And even if you could you would hit water in a lot of spots at 7 feet deep.

On the other hand you use tile (or at least I speculate) because it is a one and done operation.
You do not have to take time away from your second job you have to build and maintain ditches.
You can also farm from road ditch to road ditch with no interference. (something we do not do)

First they take a field and section it off.
Between each field they build a ditch on the long side of the field.
Then they level it.
Then you plant the rows so the follow the long side of the field.
Any low spot or place that holds water gets a small ditch cut crossways across the rows to the ditch on the side.
They use a PTO driven ditcher to do this job.

I will add.
If you had 30 acres under water that is not a low spot.
That is a field in a bowl.
Cutting a ditch to cross the bowl rim will go a log way to draining that field.

the 30 acres were in 4 ponded areas along the east side of the field. it is half a mile long.

 

[glennster]

here is my east field at the north farm. it has been patterned tiled . drains well. no way i would cut ditches in this field. too much fooling around with tillage and harvest.

 

[john in la]

no way i would cut ditches in this field. too much fooling around with tillage and harvest

With every comment made to this thread I get a better understanding of the real underlying reason you guys use tile.

 

[glennster]

no way i would cut ditches in this field. too much fooling around with tillage and harvest

With every comment made to this thread I get a better understanding of the real underlying reason you guys use tile.

we have a short growing season, unlike the southern farms. crops need to be in hopefully by june 1st. harvest will start toward the end of september. if the crop isnt dry enough, you are burning propane in the dryers. fall field work needs to get done before the rains start and the snow falls.

 

[Bikinkawboy]

Waugh, 20 years ago the big V ripper was going to be the fix all for drainage problems around here. Ripping took big tractors, lots of fuel and was slow work but most people that ripped in the fall after the crops were out really bragged it up after the first few rains. Unfortunately, by the time spring and planting time rolled around, the clay had sealed up and there was very little benefit left. These days anyone who still has a ripper normally only uses it as a root plow along fencerows and wooded areas to reduce the amount of moisture the trees rob from the crop.

During the last 5 years or so we have had several people tile creek bottom fields, which does help decrease wetness problems and those soils don't have the claypan. After tiling such a field, one guy I know set a new Missouri no-till soybean yield record, so he's been happy. The alluvial soils in the bottoms are high in clay as well and in that field, he spaced his laterals at 30' but has since tiled additional fields at on 25' spacings. That's a lot of tile and trenching cost per acre.

I live along the Grand Divide, the ridge separating the Mississippi and Missouri River watersheds. My mom's old barn is right on it, the water running off the east side roof eventually makes it to the Mississippi and the water from the west side the Missouri. Our area was originally all prairie. With our perched claypan water table, you dig a post hole in the spring and most years water runs into it from the sides of the hole. I learned to never spray herbicides under a barbed wire fence. When it gets really dry, that bare strip of soil forms a big crack right down the middle, often the thickness of my wrist. Fall of 2004 I came home and noticed the fence seemed shorter than it was that morning. The T posts fell into the crack and the bottom strand was on the ground, keeping them from falling any further. I took an 8' ground rod and was able to stick it down into the crack the entire length, apparently with more room to go. The next day a Labor Day hurricane remanent rain fixed that though. I had at least 13.25" in 24 hours, the gage having run over by the time I got home from a livestock sale. The first 6" all soaked in through the big cracks. The second 6 went to running off and flooding roads. In less than 24 hours went from severe drought to flooding.

 

[4520BW]

tile started showing up. 18 inch mains for a quarter section field. old clay tile couldnt keep up with all the heavy spring rains. mains going about 7 ft deep to get slope. will terminate in my creek close to a mile of 18 inch.

Next to a good fertilizer program tile is the best thing you can do improve your farm.

 

[glennster]

tile machine is here and started working

 

[caterpillar guy]

So they trenched them in rather than dig it in? I just got about 1500 feet of tile trenched in sort of like that only they just had a chain machine that would trench in the ditch as the tile were put in via a boot like when you plow in smaller tile with a plow. Most 4-10 inch tile is plowed in here with a depth of only about 3-4 feet in the fields then mains may need to be deeper to get to a ditch or river or lake some source to drain the water to. Usually a ditch or creek like place. Like in your 3rd picture. The guy that put mine in had a tracked machine. How do they put stick tile in with your trencher macine assemble them in the ditch as they go then backfill over them or do they have a way to just put them on a sloped ramp type of deal then they slide in as the trench is dug? Looks like an old wheel trencher. Next time I have the money I'm going to tile some other places to get some water off from a section of a field. I will need sand pin the ditch for back fill so the water can get down to the tile in the yellow clay they will need to be in. Yellow clay here is like the description of the blue clay somebody was telling about and is about from under the first 6 inches down to 3-5 feet in most places here. Then it can be a hardpan or anything else you can think of ,even just sand from the topsoil down. I have hard yellow clay hills on part of my place to flat river flats with anything from muck to white water sand under it muck will be any where from 6 inches to 3feet then the white water sand under that so no working around it when wet unless it is froze. One wheel spin and your on the belly now. With no bottom as far as I know. IF it has grss on it it will not freeze till the grass is waded down flat even snow will keep it from freezing enough to work on it much. I do scrape the snow off or track it down some let it set overnight to freeze then I can work on it some.More bare the better in winter or let it set till dry of summer like July or August. Most tile is set on 30 foot spacing if you want it to drain out well. I would like more tile in at dads but he always says you will never have enough tile. Maybe but I would like to try some time. some of his would benefit greatly from a 30 foot line like setup off a main. The ones I just put in had to go through a stretch that was between 9 and 11 feet deep with the trench to follow the grade slope. He told me he set them at a .20 grade per 100 foot.

 

[old-9]

tile machine is here and started working

No animal guards? Around here the muskrats and other critters will craw up the tile and plug them. joe