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gfci/afci question

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glennster

glennster

Well-known Member
one of my daughters friends is looking at a house built in the 1960s. the electrical wiring is all 2 conductor wire with no ground. in the kitchen and bathrooms are gfci outlets but they are missing grounds and do not work correctly. they had a home inspector out and he said not a big issue, just install afci breakers in the main panel for those circuits that have gfci outlets. will that work? to try and run ground wires would be a major undertaking and put the house out of their budget.
 
(quoted from post at 11:01:13 11/06/20) one of my daughters friends is looking at a house built in the 1960s. the electrical wiring is all 2 conductor wire with no ground. in the kitchen and bathrooms are gfci outlets but they are missing grounds and do not work correctly. they had a home inspector out and he said not a big issue, just install afci breakers in the main panel for those circuits that have gfci outlets. will that work? to try and run ground wires would be a major undertaking and put the house out of their budget.
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hen you have read all the replied that this question will generate, you will, 1) wish you had not asked, 2) you will remove GFCI's and replace with 1960's outlets. P.S. you can get both GFCI & AFCI in panel mount.
 
Hey glenster, its electrical so expect a ton of answers, but FWIW here's and old rusty power distribution engineers take NO WARRANTY IM RETIRED, SEE WHAT CURRENT PRACTICING PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS AND ELECTRICIANS HAVE TO SAY......


1) A GFCI can still provide ground fault protection (even if self test may not on some) with no third wire Equipment Grounding Conductor. It monitors and senses ONLY two conductors, the outgoing HOT and returning NEUTRAL. If the returning Neutral current is less then 5/6 milliamps of what came out ITS LEAKING/RETURNING elsewhere (ground fault) and it will trip REGARDLESS if there's a third wire equipment grounding conductor. IE IT WORKS ON OLD TWO WIRE SYSTEMS

2) Latest code (no warranty) is to use AFCI in say bedrooms etc and GFCI in bathrooms and kitchens etc within 6 feet of sinks and outdoors AND THEY CAN SAVE YOUR LIFE. AFCI more for fire protection and GFCI more for shock protection........

3) They make COMBINATION GFCI and AFCI Dual Purpose Breakers I believe (as well as single GFCI or AFCI ). Install them in the panel and the circuit is protected from EITHER.

4) What I have seen some do is use an AFCI circuit breaker in the panel and install GFCI receptacles out in the space. SO YES THAT WILL WORK

DISCLAIMER as noted Im rusty so don't take my word for it, consult with local authority and engineers and professional electricians and the NEC if and where applicable, DO NOT risk your life on lay opinions !!!!!!!!!!

See what the other professional electricians and engineers have to say and if they happen to agree with me ????

John T Longggggggggggg retired n rusty EE
 

Look at another house .
The wiring is not the only thing out of date or worn out .
No money is no excuse for not being safe .
 
really? you know nothing about the house and just say pass on it. wish i had your money. house is a ranch, new roof, new windows, new furnace
and ac, new electrical breaker panel, all appliances stay and are only a few years old. it looks like a good starter house. only downside was the lack of
ground wire.
 
(quoted from post at 13:36:43 11/06/20) really? you know nothing about the house and just say pass on it. wish i had your money. house is a ranch, new roof, new windows, new furnace
and ac, new electrical breaker panel, all appliances stay and are only a few years old. it looks like a good starter house. only downside was the lack of
ground wire.
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New breaker panel and it passed inspection without downstream grounded wiring?
 
To add to John T's excellent response one small item. When a GFCI is installed on a circuit with no ground wire, it needs to have a sticker/label applied to the receptacle that states 'no ground wire' or similar language. Those labels are normally included with the GFCI.
 
Advice like this is why I think most home inspectors are useless.

Putting a GFCI outlet on a circuit with no ground is totally legal. However, it WILL fail tests for polarity and ground fault protection, because those outlet testers rely on the ground wire to work.

The outdated wiring on this house is not necessarily a deal breaker. But it's an indication that expensive upgrades are probably needed.
 

I can't imagine a house built in the 60's did not have wiring with an equipment grounding conductor particularly with a new panel and other stuff. A new panel usually requires an update to the current code which would require the grounding conductor otherwise most codes don't require updating wiring and panels with each NEC code change unless major changes are made (with a few possible exceptions in some strict places).

Easy to check. Just pull the panel cover and go around and pull the switch and plugin covers off. All the 110/120 volt lines will probably have NM cable with a black insulated conductor, a white insulated grounded conductor (goes on the larger terminal on a plug) and typically a bare wire as the equipment grounding conductor. At the switch and plugins, the bare EGC will attach to the body and usually have a green screw.

The older NEC codes allowed the bare equipment grounding conductor to be tied in at the main panel at the same place with the white grounded conductor and the black conductor would go into the breaker itself. Most places have grandfathered that in and still allowable.

Now if the house was built in the 40's or earlier it might just have 2 wires with no grounding conductor. Maybe we have a nomenclature issue here. Standard Romex (a brand) NM cable will say it is a 2 conductor wire w/ground. The ground being the bare wire which can be a gauge size smaller than the conductors. Then we get into another issue if the wrong gauge conductors are used such as 14 gauge going where 12 gauge is required.

Main thing now is to pull some covers and see if you truly do or don't have a grounding wire. Keep in mind that some switches and plugins may also have a hot red wire (3 wire w/g) and you may see a white conductor with black tape around it which means it is being used as a black/hot wire in the circuit. Let us know.
 
Just so every one knows what GFCI & AFCI stands for.
GFCI--Ground Fault Interruptor.
AFCI--Ark Fault Interruptor.

I agree with John T.
I'm a retired electrician, sense 2001.
The GFCI game alone a couple of years I started in the trade. And the AFCI came out after I retired.
When the GFCI first came out they cost $300. or more, and were in a box about like a clock timer switch.

Dusty
 
Gotta love your Politically/Electrically Correct Terminology as I learned it in practice as well as at several NEC Seminars

Equipment GroundING Conductor yayyyyyyyyy Neutral being referred to as the GrounDED Conductor yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy,,,,,,,We called the Safety
Equipment GroundING Conductor the Grounding conductor (ing not ded),,,,,,,,,IE GrounDED verus GroundING

John T Retired but still a sparky
 
(quoted from post at 12:36:43 11/06/20) really? you know nothing about the house and just say pass on it. wish i had your money. house is a ranch, new roof, new windows, new furnace
and ac, new electrical breaker panel, all appliances stay and are only a few years old. it looks like a good starter house. only downside was the lack of
ground wire.
Click to expand...

How is it my fault that the electric system is substandard ?
If the breaker panel was replaced. Most districts require by code to update the entire electrical system to within one or two code cycles.
Well pump, kitchen, bath ,garage receptacles water heater , clothes dryer and kitchen stove all without grounds, no thanks .
 
(quoted from post at 11:36:43 11/06/20) really? you know nothing about the house and just say pass on it. wish i had your money. house is a ranch, new roof, new windows, new furnace
and ac, new electrical breaker panel, all appliances stay and are only a few years old. it looks like a good starter house. only downside was the lack of
ground wire.
Click to expand...

If my daughter planned to put my grand-daughter in that house I would throw a fit until she caved to my demands to let that house go and move on. Of course I do still know how to intimidate her, but seriously, I would let the house go and that is not meant to be arrogant, just practical. You are the one who asked for advice and advace was offered by someone who did not deserve a rant.
 

Am I the only one to notice that most of the appliances and power tools available today do not even have that third prong for grounding on the plug? If the appliance does not need the third wire? why do any rewiring?

For what it's worth, I installed a GFCI outlet a few years ago and ran a separate ground wire just for that outlet.
 

Just a thought from a non electrician. I grew up in a house that was built in 1955. It was a 2 wire setup. But everything was run in metal shielded cable. That cable functioned as the ground. All boxes were metal. So those of you who know correct me if I’m wrong about that.
 
What you say is true HOWEVER in order for the metallic shield to serve as a PROPER NEC APPROVED EQUIPMENT GROUNDING CONDUCTOR all the NEC proper terminations and splices and unions and bonds MUST BE APPROVED ADEQUATE AND CORRECLY INSTALLED. While a professional electrician understood and could do all that TYPICAL HOMEOWNER BILLY BOB AND BUBBA PROBABLY DID NOT. Ive seen it used in a lot of light fixtures but when I was a power distribution design engineer I was NOT a fan of that method.

John T
 
Rusty NO you're NOT the only one who noticed that. The designer chose to double insulate and avoid conductive metallic frame construction
and if there's NO conductive case/frame to which the Equipment GroundING Conductor bonds to, they just used a two wire plug.

John T
 
BX cable has not been approved by NEC in a long time.
A journeyman once told me that he saw one time at a home when the basement light was turned on the BX cable that fed the light started glowing following a spiral matter, it would go so far then the fuse would blow. The joist turned charcoal behind the cable.

Dusty
 
(quoted from post at 09:11:22 11/07/20) BX cable has not been approved by NEC in a long time.
A journeyman once told me that he saw one time at a home when the basement light was turned on the BX cable that fed the light started glowing following a spiral matter, it would go so far then the fuse would blow. The joist turned charcoal behind the cable.

Dusty
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True, I tried to post that info last night however my text would not upload .
Yes, that outershealth will glow red when connecting fault current .
Spiral metal Shealth was for protection from mechanical damage only .
 
Bull c. I lived my first 58 years , along with brother, sisters, mom and dad with two conductor wiring. None were electrocuted! A bunch of hullabaloo! OK, so it is "nice", but not necessary.
 
(quoted from post at 05:05:49 11/07/20) Rusty NO you're NOT the only one who noticed that. The designer chose to double insulate and avoid conductive metallic frame construction
and if there's NO conductive case/frame to which the Equipment GroundING Conductor bonds to, they just used a two wire plug.

John T
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I have also noticed that more often than not, that third prong on the plug is only molded into the rubber, and is not even attached to anything else. Just grab it with a pair of pliers and pull it out.
 
Aside from the confusion over afci and gfci, two questions the potential buyer needs to ask are 1: can they live with a 2 wire electrical system? (Like many of us do.) 2: Can they insure the house as such? We had to shop for a different insurance company when we bought a place with issues.
 
(quoted from post at 09:34:04 11/07/20) Bull c. I lived my first 58 years , along with brother, sisters, mom and dad with two conductor wiring. None were electrocuted! A bunch of hullabaloo! OK, so it is "nice", but not necessary.
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Next you will be advocating that purchasing a home equipped with only a outhouse is acceptable . Being that so many members here grew up using outhouses.

The question again, how was the new breaker panel legally installed , inspected and passed without being equipped with GFCI breakers for the kitchen/bathroom and AFCI breakers for most of the remaining receptacles .
Still fooling around with three prong clothes dryers and electric stoves ?
Odds are there isn't even 120V smoke/heat/gas detectors in the house either .
 
(quoted from post at 10:15:40 11/07/20)
(quoted from post at 09:34:04 11/07/20) Bull c. I lived my first 58 years , along with brother, sisters, mom and dad with two conductor wiring. None were electrocuted! A bunch of hullabaloo! OK, so it is "nice", but not necessary.
Click to expand...

Next you will be advocating that purchasing a home equipped with only a outhouse is acceptable . Being that so many members here grew up using outhouses.

The question again, how was the new breaker panel legally installed , inspected and passed without being equipped with GFCI breakers for the kitchen/bathroom and AFCI breakers for most of the remaining receptacles .
Still fooling around with three prong clothes dryers and electric stoves ?
Odds are there isn't even 120V smoke/heat/gas detectors in the house either .
Click to expand...
"legally" might be a key word & location might be also. here, old two wire is grandfathered .
 
(quoted from post at 10:25:03 11/07/20)
(quoted from post at 10:15:40 11/07/20)
(quoted from post at 09:34:04 11/07/20) Bull c. I lived my first 58 years , along with brother, sisters, mom and dad with two conductor wiring. None were electrocuted! A bunch of hullabaloo! OK, so it is "nice", but not necessary.
Click to expand...

Next you will be advocating that purchasing a home equipped with only a outhouse is acceptable . Being that so many members here grew up using outhouses.

The question again, how was the new breaker panel legally installed , inspected and passed without being equipped with GFCI breakers for the kitchen/bathroom and AFCI breakers for most of the remaining receptacles .
Still fooling around with three prong clothes dryers and electric stoves ?
Odds are there isn't even 120V smoke/heat/gas detectors in the house either .
Click to expand...
"legally" might be a key word & location might be also. here, old two wire is grandfathered .
Click to expand...
ven knob & tube was OK, at least as late as 2000.
 
The question again, how was the new breaker panel legally installed , inspected and passed without being equipped with GFCI breakers for the kitchen/bathroom and AFCI breakers for most of the remaining receptacles .
Still fooling around with three prong clothes dryers and electric stoves ?
Odds are there isn't even 120V smoke/heat/gas detectors in the house either .
Click to expand...

I suspect the house is where there is no permitting or inspections required.
Or the homeowner and/or his bubba "electrician" did the work because a big old fuse box with six circuits total and pennys under blown fuses would be a big turn off to some buyers.
If the panel was changed out on the sly, I would suspect all the other new stuff to also have been done on the iffy side.
 
I read further down i the post, duh, yes a standard outlet tester would fail because the outlet was not grounded, but gfci is probably OK.

You up for taking a hot wire to the bath tub?
 
If a GFCI's self test feature operated by sending fault current to the Equipment GroundING Conductor but there was none, that feature wouldn't operate HOWEVER the GFCI can still trip (even without an EGC) if any fault/leakage current occurs.

True an outlet tester will show a failure due to no EGC but again it can still function, see my post below.

John T
 
i talked to the people looking at the house. the electrical upgrades were done by a licensed electrical contractor, and the county inspected and
approved the upgrades. a new electrical panel was installed by them to replace a fuse panel that was installed during the original construction. the
well, furnace, ac are all on new wiring. stove is nat gas as is the water heater. the upgrades were done a few years ago. seller has all documentation.
my daughters friend was looking at the house and questioned what the home inspector said about a gfci outlet on a circuit with an afci breaker without
a ground wire. that and only that was the information i was seeking. thank you john t for your response.
 
John T I appreciate your input on this. As a 5 year old child my Mom and I watched her dream house being built daily. I’m sure the electricians who wired the place did it right. My parents lived there fo 45 years. As an adult I replaced outlets and fixtures for them and never found one that did not have a good ground.
 
(quoted from post at 16:05:16 11/07/20) i talked to the people looking at the house. the electrical upgrades were done by a licensed electrical contractor, and the county inspected and
approved the upgrades. a new electrical panel was installed by them to replace a fuse panel that was installed during the original construction. the
well, furnace, ac are all on new wiring. stove is nat gas as is the water heater. the upgrades were done a few years ago. seller has all documentation.
my daughters friend was looking at the house and questioned what the home inspector said about a gfci outlet on a circuit with an afci breaker without
a ground wire. that and only that was the information i was seeking. thank you john t for your response.
Click to expand...

So now that it all said and done . Then you come out with the info that everything is legal , inspected and documented ......maybe .
Could be like all those votes that showed up after Nov 3rd .
 
(quoted from post at 20:56:40 11/07/20) I thought you were canuck?
Click to expand...

Affects us too .
Our elections act allows any registered voter to vouch for anybody they swear for is a legal voter . They just happen to have a problem with their paperwork .
This is how there ar selection results that dont make sense.
 
Please stay out of our politics.

This is a post about electrical, please apply your expertise there.
 
the information on my original post was all i had from a phone call. i never saw the house. the question was in regard to a home inspectors comment
about having an afci breaker installed on a circuit that had a gfci outlet without a ground. that was all the information i was seeking . nothing else. then
you responded with. Look at another house .

The wiring is not the only thing out of date or worn out .
No money is no excuse for not being safe .

basically condemning the house. then all the sidewalk superintendents and ytdot inspectors jump in. i then contacted the people looking for more
information and posted that back. so then that was not good enough for you, you then resort to a political comment.
fortunately there are members of the yt community that actually try and share their knowledge with anyone that asks for help without receiving a
condescending attitude. have a good day sir.
 
Good story, most professional electricians take pride in their work (as opposed to Billy Bob and Bubba). Take a look at some of the distribution panels WOW like a work of art !!

John T
 
(quoted from post at 10:16:57 11/08/20) the information on my original post was all i had from a phone call. i never saw the house. the question was in regard to a home inspectors comment
about having an afci breaker installed on a circuit that had a gfci outlet without a ground. that was all the information i was seeking . nothing else. then
you responded with. Look at another house .

The wiring is not the only thing out of date or worn out .
No money is no excuse for not being safe .

basically condemning the house. then all the sidewalk superintendents and ytdot inspectors jump in. i then contacted the people looking for more
information and posted that back. so then that was not good enough for you, you then resort to a political comment.
fortunately there are members of the yt community that actually try and share their knowledge with anyone that asks for help without receiving a
condescending attitude. have a good day sir.
Click to expand...

So is all the electrical up to code or not ?
Is everything grounded or have GFCI protection ?
Do the remaining circuits that do not require GFCI have AFCI ?
Is the kitchen upgraded to enough circuits ?
Are you aware there are combo AfCI/GFCI breakers ?
 
In Texas a two wire system is up to code on an old house. It's grandfathered in. Now if you change an outlet it has to be the old two wire outlet or a person can put in a GFCI if they desire.
 

In other jurisdictions, when a service upgrade is installed . The rest of the house has to be brought up to code .
If the old fuse panel had been kept , no upgrades to GFCI, AFCI and grounds to some loads would not be required .
I wonder if this breaker panel upgrade also included two new ground rods or a ground plate ?
 
(quoted from post at 12:36:43 11/06/20) really? you know nothing about the house and just say pass on it. wish i had your money. house is a ranch, new roof, new windows, new furnace
and ac, new electrical breaker panel, all appliances stay and are only a few years old. it looks like a good starter house. only downside was the lack of
ground wire.
Click to expand...

You have the money , you just choose not to spend it as good enough will do is your policy rather than doing it right .
 
Hey Glennster, Got it figured out now ????? Ask either an Electrical or a Legal question and see what happens lol

Take care neighbor, best wishes

John T
 
(quoted from post at 06:58:21 11/09/20)
(quoted from post at 12:36:43 11/06/20) really? you know nothing about the house and just say pass on it. wish i had your money. house is a ranch, new roof, new windows, new furnace
and ac, new electrical breaker panel, all appliances stay and are only a few years old. it looks like a good starter house. only downside was the lack of
ground wire.
Click to expand...

You have the money , you just choose not to spend it as good enough will do is your policy rather than doing it right .
Click to expand...
ey, b&d, is all the plumbing in your house up to current codes (the codes that are in effect where "I" live!, not where your house is located)? Do you have back-flow preventers on all outdoor hydrants? Oh, my God, if not then you are putting you & all of your household members & guest in danger of DEATH! If you do have preventers, were they installed by certified, licensed, experienced, union plumbers!
 
geez john , you got that right! i posted a simple question from one of my daughters friends who was looking at a house. i never saw the house, i am not buying the house, i am not working on the house, i have nothing to do with the house. i really dont care what they do about the house. yet the correct police have to make a federal case and then make political comments. and then people wonder why members here leave the forum. anyway enough of that. as always john i appreciate all your help that you provide for the members of this forum. stay safe and healthy! and if i ever get to the flywheelers, i owe you and the mrs dinner, my treat!! and that old florida ford guy and his significant other are welcome too!
 
GFCI should work ground wire or not an long as a fault current developers. The type of tester being used might not trip without the ground wire as an I’m balance between the hot and neutral might not occur. Due to the design of the tester.
 
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