H clutch sticky transmission noise

[Dave41A]

Good afternoon. I recently replaced the front countershaft seal in my '41 H. When doing so, I also discovered slop in the front countershaft bearing. I could not get the bearing out without removing the countershaft, so I ended up removing the clutch shaft, input pinion assembly, & transmission output shaft to get at it. All the original parts & shims were re-installed except for the front countershaft ball bearing, which I replaced with a NOS Greene bearing of equivalent specification to the IH original.

Two differences since doing this work:
1) The transmission makes more noise than before. This noise varies with engine speed but not gear, which is consistent with input pinion noise. It increases when the tractor is under load. I suspect that the new bearing has tightened up the clearance between the input pinion and countershaft, and that after 80 years the wear pattern of the gears adapted to the old bearing, and the noise is therefore normal. I would appreciate any insight on this. Should I look for a deeper problem?

2) The clutch is sticky. When driving along, if I step on the clutch, the tractor continues to drive for a few more seconds before the clutch releases. When shifting gears I notice significantly more grinding than before, like the input shaft is not slowing down after stepping on the clutch. I can wait to shift gears, but the 2-3 seconds of additional driving when stepping on the clutch needs to be corrected. Is this a binding clutch pilot bearing? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts on the transmission noise and clutch problem.
Dave

 

[used red MN]

Not sure about your new noises. Your main shaft pilot bearing number 38 in the attached was good. Those bearings tend to cause problems. What was the lube in the transmission before? Did you change it? What weight did you put back in? Test the release of your clutch by doing this. Engine running at idle, push clutch in put in gear. Continue to hold the clutch down place the tran in neutral and make a two count ..1000 one then try to put it back in gear. If there is minimal teeth clash when you do this your clutch is releasing fine. I assume the same clutch stayed in the tractor? A lighter weight gear oil may be what has made changes in both cases.
Edit to add a missing step.
CNHI Farmall H parts diagram


This post was edited by used red MN on 08/22/2021 at 02:03 pm.

 

[Dave41A]

(quoted from post at 19:25:47 08/22/21) Not sure about your new noises. Your main shaft pilot bearing number 38 in the attached was good. Those bearings tend to cause problems. What was the lube in the transmission before? Did you change it? What weight did you put back in? Test the release of your clutch by doing this. Engine running at idle, push clutch in put in gear. Continue to hold the clutch down and make a two count ..1000 one then try to put it back in gear. If there is minimal teeth clash when you do this your clutch is releasing fine. I assume the same clutch stayed in the tractor? A lighter weight gear oil may be what has made changes in both cases.

Used Red: Lube was 80-90 weight gear oil. It is very new & clean, so put it back in when done. Bearing 38 from diagram was good. Didn't touch the clutch. Clutch had been changed by previous owner and looks nearly new.

At low idle, I get clashing/grinding when counting to "3-1000." At 4 seconds it shifts pretty smooth. Definitely grinds/clashes at "2-1000."

It did not do this before. I don't want to have to stop suddenly and wait 3 seconds for the clutch to release.

Gear noise is typical IH non synchro gear noise, but much louder than before. I have a standard muffler, but the transmission is now louder than the engine except when under serious load and the throttle is opened up. Driving back and forth to the fields I hear the gears, not the engine. Before the whole tractor was actually pretty quiet.

 

[used red MN]

And when you report the clashing it is following the steps I laid out? The way you are explaining it you are waiting for the
trans shaft and gears to stop. My process would be wanting to see if they start spinning again. And I did not say this but
the test I explained should be done with the tractor stopped. Was the transmission was put in gear first to stop the input
shaft and counter shaft? That is what I am trying to establish with that process. ONLY if the clutch is NOT releasing
properly will the shaft begin turning again when the transmission is put in neutral once it has been placed in a gear to stop
it. I am with you if the shims are all the same and the bearings are what was in it previously this really make no sense
why it would be noisy now. Did the main shaft pilot bearing have exposed rollers that stayed with the main shaft? Are you
sure none of them came out of place when you reinstalled the input shaft? And also how much jostling did you do trying
to get the lower countershaft bearing off before you removed the shafts?

 

[used red MN]

Another question is does the tractor have a lift-all pump. If so was it connected before and is it connected now? When connected they slow the shafts down a little quicker.

 

[Dave41A]

(quoted from post at 20:42:56 08/22/21) And when you report the clashing it is following the steps I laid out? The way you are explaining it you are waiting for the
trans shaft and gears to stop. My process would be wanting to see if they start spinning again. And I did not say this but
the test I explained should be done with the tractor stopped. Was the transmission was put in gear first to stop the input
shaft and counter shaft? That is what I am trying to establish with that process. ONLY if the clutch is NOT releasing
properly will the shaft begin turning again when the transmission is put in neutral once it has been placed in a gear to stop
it. I am with you if the shims are all the same and the bearings are what was in it previously this really make no sense
why it would be noisy now. Did the main shaft pilot bearing have exposed rollers that stayed with the main shaft? Are you
sure none of them came out of place when you reinstalled the input shaft? And also how much jostling did you do trying
to get the lower countershaft bearing off before you removed the shafts?

Used Red: Here's what I did. The tractor was parked in my shed, in neutral. I started it & dropped it to low idle. Then I stepped on the clutch and to get ready to put it in reverse, like I'm going to back it out. I tried "1-1000, 2-1000" and pushed the shift lever forward to "R." Lots of clashing. Back to neutral. I then released the pedal, waited a few seconds (clutch shaft should be turning at full speed now), and then stepped on the clutch pedal again. Counted to "3-1000." Still clashing. Back to neutral. Then again, except this time "4-1000." Shifted smooth this time. Tried it a few more times at 3-1000 to see if it was just a fluke, but it still clashed, but not every time.

Not sure what you mean by "ONLY if the clutch is NOT releasing
properly will the shaft begin turning again when the transmission is put in neutral once it has been placed in a gear to stop
it."

It seems like the clutch take 3-4 seconds to let go. I think this is separate from the tranny noise. Two things are going on. Tranny noise increases when going up hills, and lessens when going down. It is louder than the engine except when I am really working the tractor & main jet opens up. It's always the same (R-1-2-3 &4, didn't check 5), so I think it must be that input idler. I'll check it in 5th and see if that is different.

And for your other question..."yes" on the lift-all. It was connected before, and I put it back in. Lift-all seems healthy.

This post was edited by Dave41A on 08/22/2021 at 01:00 pm.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Put it in high gear and lock the brakes. Open the throttle and slip the clutch for about 15 seconds. If the clutch now releases properly, or better, there is something on the disc or flywheel making the plate stick to it (like grease). But that probably wont cure it. When everything cools off it will get sticky again

 

[Janicholson]

One more thought. The transmission coupling with the tapered bolts and wavy ring can be put together incorrectly causing clutch drag, and noise. It must be assembled so it is as long as it can be, pushing the shaft into the pilot bearing. Jim

 

[Dave41A]

(quoted from post at 21:07:24 08/22/21) Put it in high gear and lock the brakes. Open the throttle and slip the clutch for about 15 seconds. If the clutch now releases properly, or better, there is something on the disc or flywheel making the plate stick to it (like grease). But that probably wont cure it. When everything cools off it will get sticky again

Fritz: OK, I can see that. The whole clutch chamber/bellhousing ahead of the lift-all was just filled with grease that was overflowing from the R and L clutch release shaft bearings/grease fittings. I was scooping it out with a putty knife just to see what I was doing and I can see some maybe getting on the disk and me not noticing. I'll try your suggestion and post back.

 

[Dave41A]

(quoted from post at 21:10:03 08/22/21) One more thought. The transmission coupling with the tapered bolts and wavy ring can be put together incorrectly causing clutch drag, and noise. It must be assembled so it is as long as it can be, pushing the shaft into the pilot bearing. Jim

Jim: Good point on the coupling. I'll double-check that, too.

 

[used red MN]

The test I laid out in my first reply tells you if your clutch is
releasing properly short of some weird circumstances. Do
exactly as I have laid out there, just add in that the whole
test is completed and the tractor never moves. It
establishes that the clutch plate, the input shaft to the trans
and the counter shaft all remain stopped while the clutch is
in the released position or pushed down. The act of placing
it in gear stops motion of these parts. Placing the
transmission back in neutral would allow those parts to
start spinning again if the clutch was not releasing properly.
I do not think I can explain this any clearer. I almost
suggested to try the clutch slip that Fritz suggested. But on
the other hand Jim may have something with the possibility
of the coupler being assembled wrong. None of this helps
with the noise, but there is a possibility that an incorrectly
assembled coupler may cause it.

 

[Dave41A]

Used Red: Thanks. I posted what I did. I think I did what you told me to do. Tractor never moved--started in neutral, then stepped on clutch & attempted to shift into gear after "2-1000." Ground every time.

 

[caterpillar guy]

I'd start with the trans stop speed if to long to stop I would look into the clutch disk having oil/grease on it along with the p plate and FW. If not then are you sure the retainers did not get rotated from the original position and of course the slop in the bolt holes for the clutch shaft i suppose could be a possibility. As for the noise it is probably like you said the difference in gear mesh and shaft position with the bearing wear changing the level of the shaft just enough to cause both the noise and even clutch intricacies. Pilot bearing needing grease would or could also cause your problem. different position of the clutch shaft would cause it also.

 

[used red MN]

Dave, Sorry, had to edit my steps to add, put in gear then
MOVE SHIFTER TO NEUTRAL .. then start the count,
at 2 try to put it in gear again seeing if it grinds. By doing
this you are checking if the stopped gears are remaining
stopped or if something in the clutch is dragging thus
making the shafts and gears start to turn again. Which in
turn gives you grinding. The latter would mean a problem in
the clutch. During this test the clutch is continually held
down. Now if you think through this explanation I hope it
should be clear what this accomplishes. It is not really that
complex. Did you double check the coupler assembly for
being correct?

 

[Dave41A]

(quoted from post at 21:14:28 08/22/21)

(quoted from post at 21:07:24 08/22/21) Put it in high gear and lock the brakes. Open the throttle and slip the clutch for about 15 seconds. If the clutch now releases properly, or better, there is something on the disc or flywheel making the plate stick to it (like grease). But that probably wont cure it. When everything cools off it will get sticky again

Fritz: OK, I can see that. The whole clutch chamber/bellhousing ahead of the lift-all was just filled with grease that was overflowing from the R and L clutch release shaft bearings/grease fittings. I was scooping it out with a putty knife just to see what I was doing and I can see some maybe getting on the disk and me not noticing. I'll try your suggestion and post back.

Fritz & all: Fritz's "ride the clutch" trick worked. I must've got a gob of grease on the clutch disk while it was all apart. We'll see if the stickiness comes back when things cool off. If it comes back, I take it the only real solution is to remove the clutch disk and clean it?

For the others, I can run through all the gears with no clashing at all, so all the other tests check out. I also checked the clutch shaft coupling like Jim suggested. It was fine.