H60E transmission problems

[Elanier81]

Posted yesterday but can't see it on here anywhere. I have a H60 E Pay loader. Just got it recently ran it for about five and a half hours working it hard. Shut it down for the night next morning started it up barely wanted to move. It has no brakes so I don't think it's the override that some have.
Any ideas on why it won't move now? Fluid is Right level

 

[Bret4207]

Do you have any manuals for it? My first thought would be plugged filters, assuming it has a torque converter of some sort.

 

[Elanier81]

(quoted from post at 07:39:54 11/24/18)
Do you have any manuals for it? My first thought would be plugged filters, assuming it has a torque converter of some sort.

I have all the manuals for it. I have changed the filter. I cleaned both suction screens, they were filthy, and nothing changed.

 

[AJ.]

Sounds like the charge pump has lost it's prime,see if it is external and if so determine which pipe is the feed pipe,remove it and fill the pump and pipe with oil and give it a try,look for any breathers that the transmission may have see they are clean,is the engine tone changing when you put it in drive,make sure the brakes are off,some of those loaders had air over hydraulic brakes and unless the air pressure was building up the brakes would remain on even though the foot brake don't work,are the gauges working what are they saying.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

(quoted from post at 19:59:15 11/24/18) Sounds like the charge pump has lost it's prime,see if it is external and if so determine which pipe is the feed pipe,remove it and fill the pump and pipe with oil and give it a try,look for any breathers that the transmission may have see they are clean,is the engine tone changing when you put it in drive,make sure the brakes are off,some of those loaders had air over hydraulic brakes and unless the air pressure was building up the brakes would remain on even though the foot brake don't work,are the gauges working what are they saying.
AJ

The pump is primed. Neither suction hose is collapsed it's sucking fluid out of the transmission. The driveshaft is turning when I put it in 3rd gear it and it goes in gear and the drive shaft stops at idle like it should. When I put it in first and second gear the driveshaft does not stop it keeps spinning.

 

[Elanier81]

Also brakes are disabled so it isn't the brake override to put it in neutral

 

[Elanier81]

(quoted from post at 11:52:29 11/27/18)
Also brakes are disabled so it isn't the brake override to put it in neutral

Up above I said drive shaft stops when it goes in third I meant input shaft

 

[AJ.]

Those machines are pension age and I can't remember the setup,is the torque mounted to the engine with a shaft to the transmission,a transfer box on the transmission with a drive shaft to each axle,if that's roughly the drive train and you can see the shaft from the torque spinning going into the transmission and there is nothing coming out, it will have a clutch for each direction and one for each speed,to narrow things down,it would be unlikely the forward and reverse would fail at the same time so thats out of the equation,unlikely all the speed would fail together so that's out also, you have checked out the control linkage is moving the valves and that's ok,it would help to know what transmission it has could be Clarke or Borg Warner ZF, etc,The Clarke had a fibre ring-gear that used to fail and get ground up like coffee granules,if it failed while you were digging it would make guessing easier but to fail when parked,was it in a graveyard or is the place haunted or something,did you find any metal in the strainer,could be a sheared spline,my next move would be a pressure check to eliminate the pump,valves etc.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

Tranny is a S700 International. Engine is Iternational also.
And yes you're description sounds pretty accurate of the layout.

My brother and I agree that it's about impossible that all of it went out at once, especially while sitting overnight.
We're not sure about the oil flow to the oil tubes in tranny. We know oil is coming out of pump to the manifold, but not positive past that.

I really feel that it is going to be fairly simple solution once the problem is found (hoping and praying).

 

[AJ.]

Yes I agree,does the machine have a nudge pedal that could be stuck down,the oil pressure regulator valve could be stuck open the mystery is why did it happen parked,a pressure test would tell if the clutches are engaging or not,you could try over on the IH site Red Power,the guys on there run nothing but IH stuff and someone might have come across your problem.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

(quoted from post at 04:18:13 11/28/18) Yes I agree,does the machine have a nudge pedal that could be stuck down,the oil pressure regulator valve could be stuck open the mystery is why did it happen parked,a pressure test would tell if the clutches are engaging or not,you could try over on the IH site Red Power,the guys on there run nothing but IH stuff and someone might have come across your problem.
AJ

on the nudge pedal, I assume you're meaning the left brake pedal that says it takes the transmission out of gear?
And do you have any idea what the pressure should be have the clutch packs when they are engaging or when they are not engaging, just a rough idea? I don't think we saw what the pressure should be there in the manual but we can look again and see if it says

 

[AJ.]

Usually those sort of trannies would work between 170 psi to 200 but I am not certain,you would need the book for a reference,someone on here may know,I looked on the Komatsu site it is not listed there,its not listed on the Case IH site either,sorry I can't be of more help.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

(quoted from post at 12:03:45 11/28/18) Usually those sort of trannies would work between 170 psi to 200 but I am not certain,you would need the book for a reference,someone on here may know,I looked on the Komatsu site it is not listed there,its not listed on the Case IH site either,sorry I can't be of more help.
AJ

Thanks for all your help and if I can't find the pressures in the book that at least gives me a general idea of what I'm looking for

 

[AJ.]

As I get interested in problems I was nosing around in some old manuals and found a parts book for the H50B,there may not be a lot of difference in things like the transmission control valve,once I seen the drawing I remembered how the nudge pedal works,when the left pedal is pressed air is sent to the control valve and it moves the spool to the neutral position and then applies the brake in other words you drive up to a truck and need to stop and tip the bucket so its left foot on the pedal and you can keep the other foot on the throttle to keep the RPM up while you tip the bucket and put the machine in reverse,you will see in the attached parts that spool valve its the one I marked with the brown bar,that valve should be back to the right in the drawing by spring pressure when drive is engaged,if it was stuck forward there would be no drive,check its operation.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

(quoted from post at 17:21:16 11/29/18) As I get interested in problems I was nosing around in some old manuals and found a parts book for the H50B,there may not be a lot of difference in things like the transmission control valve,once I seen the drawing I remembered how the nudge pedal works,when the left pedal is pressed air is sent to the control valve and it moves the spool to the neutral position and then applies the brake in other words you drive up to a truck and need to stop and tip the bucket so its left foot on the pedal and you can keep the other foot on the throttle to keep the RPM up while you tip the bucket and put the machine in reverse,you will see in the attached parts that spool valve its the one I marked with the brown bar,that valve should be back to the right in the drawing by spring pressure when drive is engaged,if it was stuck forward there would be no drive,check its operation.
AJ

Yes even though we have no air going to to the brakes cuz we have no brakes we checked that anyway to make sure that the spool was where it was supposed to be and it is not the issue

 

[AJ.]

When you reply to a post delete everything in the box first to stop it repeating the replies,I just had a look over on Red Power and see no one has any idea yet,seeing this issue happened when parked it must be something simple,you say you can feel a jerk when you put it in gear so I would conclude from that it is going into gear so that eliminates everything up to the output,does the four wheel drive lever feel right if you move it,if you solve the issue please let us know what was the cause.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

I only feel the slight jerk when putting in 3rd gear first and second I don't feel anything. first and second will only barely move if I really rev It Up. I haven't looked in the book yet about the 4 wheel drive, but I don't see a lever in there anywhere so I have been assuming that it is full-time 4 wheel drive.
And thanks for the how to reply info

 

[AJ.]

You may be right it may not have a lever,those machines seem to be very scarce with no one seem to know of them usually on here there are some old timers like myself that are die hards,no machine ever left my place without been repaired,the trouble with this sort of problem is it may be inside and the only way to access it is tear it down,a labour intensive job,it would be ok to do that if the problem could be fixed,someone may come on that has had this mysterious failure.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

We are going to test the pressures on the lube tubes going to the clutch packs next. We kind of feel like that is the last simple solution that it could be. although if it is a problem with the lube tubes within the transmission, it might not be that simple?

 

[Elanier81]

We are going to test the pressures on the lube tubes going to the clutch packs next. We kind of feel like that is the last simple solution that it could be. although if it is a problem with the lube tubes within the transmission, it might not be that simple?

 

[Elanier81]

We are going to test the pressures on the lube tubes going to the clutch packs next. We kind of feel like that is the last simple solution that it could be. although if it is a problem with the lube tubes within the transmission, it might not be that simple

 

[Elanier81]

 

[Ian Beale]

Maybe post that transmission number over at Red Power.

Seems unlikely to me that IH would have built one just especially for that model.

So might have used it in a dozer or something else as well

 

[ANTIQUE DOZER BOB]

THE HOUGH H60E WAS NOTORIOUS AT BRAKING THE FLEXPLATE
ON THE TORQUE CONVERTOR. HOWEVER I AGREE THAT IT MOST LIKELY SOMETHING SIMPLER. LIKE A STUCK VALVE.

 

[Penn]

Bob the board protocol considers upper case type to be shouting,just type normally.
P

 

[Elanier81]

Okay we took the control valve apart again and there was trash in it. We cleaned it out and put it back on. We had 250 lb of pressure at the control control valve before we clean the trash out of it. Now we only have 150 lb of pressure at the control valve and we know it is clean and working properly now. We took the pump off a couple of weeks ago everything look good and clean inside of it. These pressures are when tractor is in neutral.

 

[Elanier81]

Disregard the pressure numbers. My mind was exhausted as well as my body last night. I will give the correct complete update when I get with my brother and look at the numbers we have written down. Still not running

 

[AJ.]

The 150psi I would guess may be a teeny bit low but should be plenty to give you drive,the pressure in neutral is created to charge the torque and push the oil through the cooler and filter it also should be enough to engage the clutches when selected and give you drive,see what reading you get from the clutches,if the clutches read good which I think they will because all could not fail at once,the IH boys I am surprised no one has come across a similar problem.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

let's just start over on my last post completely. Prior to finding the trash in the sequencing valve throttle valve control valve pressure the control valve pressure was 250. After clearing the throttle valve the sequencing valve pressure was 220 lb. This while this was reading while the gear was in neutral. When we shifted the first gear or second gear the control valve pressure drop down to 130 to 150 lb and would not rise back up. The operator manual or the shop manual calls for a clutch activation pressure of between 270 and 300 lb. There's a 100 lb pressure drop between the transmission filter and the control valve which there's only a 3 ft length of hose in between the two. That's why we think there's excessive flow to the control valve. I have been using sequence and valve and control valve interchangeably in this conversation. One correction there's about a foot-and-a-half of large-diameter hose in addition to the three foot of hose between the filter and the control valve pressure gauge.

 

[AJ.]

Sorry I can't be of more help but I think even with the low pressure there should be some attempt of drive,those machines would drive with the engine on low idle,I never like to find the machines are used without a service brake it puts a lot of strain on the transmission going from forward to reverse and vice versa to stop,can you identify any of the trash you found,if you do find the trouble please post the cause.
AJ

 

[Elanier81]

The machine does move slightly in forward and reverse in all 3 gears now. the trash was a myriad of things there was some gasket where someone had done a horrible shotty job on the suction screen filters previously. It look like they use silicone and got some in there. Mostly just grime. The Breather had lost its cap and there were literally pieces of twig and leaves stuck down in there I cleaned all that out but some could be in the gear pack for all I know. My brother is supposed to post a detailed post of all that we have done and found so far

 

[Emu]

I had a Michigan 125B that had a similar problem but it happened while I was loading with it,no foot brake ran up to the truck I was loading, pulled the reverser back to stop,no stop till it hit the truck burst the diesel tank with the front wheel,50 gallons of diesel on the floor,the machine lost drive,it sheared the splines on the output shaft of the reverser,tranny out to repair cost 1k plus in parts,the repair kit for the brake air valve was about $120 and took a couple of hours to fit,I won"t be driving it again without brakes, I hope the same has not happened to yours,I had to repair mine as that happened after I had the center pivot joint rebushed and pinned.

 

[fredfarkle]

New Poster Here.
I am Elanier81's brother and have been working with him on the H60 payloader.
Following are some clutch pack pressures. Although these are in a chart, they were taking with only one pressure gage, so all readings are actually one at a time. Also, I did not get all gear selection pressures on each clutch pack.
2nd clutch pack n2-0, r2-0,r3-180,f3-200,f1-0,f2-0
reverse clutch pack f3-220,n3-50,r3-190,r2-0,r1-0,f1-0,f2-0,
fwd clutch pack f1-0,f2-50,f3-0,r1-0,r2-50,r3-0,n1-0,n2-10,n3-0

Note that while reading the reverse clutch pack pressure, it reads high pressure when both reverse 3 (which it should) and forward 3 are selected. It seems to me the reverse clutch pack should read 0 when forward is selected.

 

[fredfarkle]

I know the clutch pressure display is a mess. I tried to paste an excel chart and I couldn't properly. I then tried to set it up as a chart in the box, but when I previewed it, it was ran together.

 

[Jim.ME]

Take a photo of your chart and post that.

 

[fredfarkle]

here is the photo

 

[fredfarkle]

2nd try on the photo

 

[fredfarkle]

here is the recap of what all we have done.


Recap of work on the H60 payloader
1. Found the transmission filter installed incorrectly so that it bypassed and was the wrong filter. The spring was not installed on the bottom to keep the cartridge tight against the top. Installed it as properly as possible and ordered correct cartridge.
2. Found both suction screens COMPLETELY plugged. Realized the screen bypasses had to be opening, therefore trash was getting into the system.
3. Removed, disassembled and cleaned the following
a. Charging pump:no trash
b. Charging pump pressure regulator:no trash
c. Scheduling valve-no trash: but did not remove the scheduling valve throttling valve at this time. Found the accumulator spring broken into about 5 pieces. Thought we had found the problem
d. Control valve: no trash

 

[fredfarkle]

part 2 of recap
. Reinstalled the new accumulator spring- no change. Read the pressure at the scheduling valve supply. Pressure was 250 in neutral, and dropped to about 180 when a gear was selected, but returned to approximately 250. Machine would still not run
5. Read pressure in torque converter- read about 45 psi where manual said the pressure should be 45-85 psi
6. Again pulled the scheduling and control valves and completely disassembled the scheduling valve. This time while removing the scheduling valve throttling valve, found 3 pieces of rubber in the valve. This made it extremely hard to remove (I thought I may be damaging the valve) and blocked several of the 4 flow holes. We knew we had it this time. While reinstalling the accumulator sleeve, it fell in (did not have to be forced at all) and that did not register with me at the time.
7. Put the pressure gage on the newly installed scheduling and control valve. Machine still did not go. But the control valve pressure would drop to 130-150 when 1st or 2nd gear was selected in forward or reverse and stay there. In 3rd it would drop and return to 220, but the machine would not move. It would strain in 3rd but not move.
8. Decided to read clutchpack pressures. They show both the forward and reverse clutch packs pressured in forward and reverse, which makes no sense. Clutch pack pressures are in a post above this one

 

[fredfarkle]

part 3 of recap. it wouldn't let me post until I broke it down

9. To verify we had put he control valve back together properly, we removed it from the machine and replaced the scheduling valve with a piece of wood with a gasket. Since the 5 operating holes in the control valve go up and down at the same time, the plan was to block the 5 holes going to the scheduling valve and blow air into the oil inlet of the control valve. Then we would check that the proper holes were open. Did this and it passed all 9 possible gear positions. Then did it again while blocking the designated holes to ensure it was not leaking into another chamber. No leakage.
10. Possible future plans
a. Replace the oring in the scheduling valve accumulator to see if oil was bypassing and pressurizing the forward/reverse clutch pack which was not selected.
b. Replace the scheduling valve with a steel plate and totally bypass the scheduling valve. I saw a picture of an older Hough payloader and that is the way it was setup. There was a plate on top of the control valve with simply an oil inlet. It looks like to me that the scheduling valve is there to smooth the gear shifts. I don’t think it will hurt to run without it for a short test.

 

[AJ.]

It certainly won't drive on the pressures posted,post the first readings before ye tampered with the valves,I would not block off any oil passages as there is a chance of cracking the casing it's cast,how many flows comes off the pump,if only one then there must be a priority valve to divide the flow,the flow would be divided and one flow lowered for the torque and the higher flow for clutch engagement,it is possible that the pump has two flows if so then there would be no need for a divider valve,first second and third gears are used for both forward and reverse,the direction has two gears forward and reverse,so there is five clutches in all,there has to be enough oil flow and pressure to engage two clutches for the machine to drive one direction and one speed clutch,I had a look at the Baldwin filter catalogue PT401-MPG is listed as the TC filter.
All I can add is good luck
AJ

 

[fredfarkle]

the clutch pack pressures posted are the only ones we took.
there are two charge pumps. One supplies lube oil to one of the clutch packs. the other charge pump pumps all oil through the oil filter. it then splits to a back pressure regulator, which maintains the 270-300 psi, and the other line goes to the control valve.
after the oil goes through the backpressure regulator, it flows to the torque convertor, where the pressure is maintained by another back pressure regulator set at 40-80 psi. oil then flows to the cooler and then to the other two clutchpacks lube oil circuits.

 

[fredfarkle]

We were not blocking the oil passages while machine was running. we did the test with air while the control valve was off the machine

 

[fredfarkle]

It has been a while, but here is the latest update.
First, the picture of the pressures I posted earlier is incorrect. The labels in the manual which shows the location of the pressure taps are incorrect.
We recorded some new pressures last week. We only had one pressure gage again. All of the pressures under "forward" were recorded and then the gage was moved to the "reverse" pressure tap and the pressures recorded.
Gear-----------Forward clutch pack----------reverse clutch pack
N1------------------------0----------------------------0
F1------------------------100-------------------------0
r1-------------------------0---------------------------100
n2------------------------0---------------------------0
f2------------------------140-------------------------0
r2------------------------0----------------------------110
n3------------------------0---------------------------0
f3------------------------240--------------------------0
r3------------------------0---------------------------225

These readings make more sense. We have purchased a total of 10 gages for our next trip (end of march) so we can record all of the pressure readings at the same time.
i will post the bulk readings when we get them
overall, the machine is trying to run a little more. this is after we replaced ALL orings in the sectional valve because they were bypassing oil