Haybine - Small Fields

[Bill VA]

Visited a friend of mine this weekend and he is cutting 80 plus acres with a 9 ft New Holland sickle haybine - covers a
lot of ground!

One of the things on the consideration list in our hay operation is maximizing our efforts - when there is little time at
the end of the day. Speed up the cut, widen the cut, cut anytime - day or night, condition the hay (maybe to save a day
of drying), etc.

One of the things I've pondered is going with a 9 ft cutter of some sort. Don't think I have the hp for a 9 ft disc
mower or discbine - but have plenty for a sickle haybine.

We now have fields ranging from 3 acres to 10.

Wondering how practical/realistic it is to run a 9 ft mower conditioner, like the NH488 or the Hesston 1120 in these
smaller fields. I should think the additional 2 ft would definately cut down on the number of trips around the field,
but turning and manuvering - any more combersone in the field than a 7 ft mower conditioner like a NH472 or Hesston 1110?

Also with these small fields are lumps and rolling hills - nothing steep. The concern with a 9 ft haybine is simply high
centering the cutter bar vs a 7 ft. BTW - we mow at the highest setting vs clipping the dirt!

What do you think? Do small fields and a 9 ft haybine mix?

Thanks,
Bill

 

[NY 986]

Guys do it all the time here. A fellow I know picks up acreage because he is willing to make the 5-7 acres that is in back of somebody's house who no longer wants to play with a rotary cutter and the ground will support timothy and alfalfa. Take what you can get.

 

[Tim(nj)]

Cut fields in size from 1 acre to 20 acres with a 9 foot sickle mower conditioner for years and continue to do so with a 9 foot disc mower conditioner.

 

[JMS/.MN]

You"re going to make fewer turns with a larger machine, and they are easier. You have more cut space to turn in. I don"t see the power issue with a discbine- my son bought my 9 foot 5209 and used it with his 3020, cutting ditches. Might need to go slower....but sickle mowers/mocos will plug when you cross into point rows at a sharp angle. A discbine will take everything into the front of the machine, standing or windrow, and make a new windrow behind it. I never plugged the front in 11 years.

 

[Case Nutty 1660]

I cut 1200 acres a year with a 14' hydro swing 80 acres to me even with a 9' unit is nothing
cnt

 

[Bill VA]

Thanks! I think a 3020 has around 70 PTO hp whereas I've got 50 PTO hp. I've pretty much been advised to avoid a 9ft disc mower or discbine because of my lack of hp.

We have some obstacles that could wreck the cutter bar on a haybine or discbine and was leaning towards a 9ft disc mower (if and when I upgrade), to be followed by a tedder, but one thing I can't get around IMHO is the time savings in seat time via a haybine cutting and conditioning in one pass. As much as I like the speed of a disc mower, I just keep coming back to a mower conditioner. There are some deals out there on both the NH488 and Hesston 1120 (or the CaseIH versions of the Hesston). I passed on a couple of really nice 9 ft Hesston/CaseIH mower conditioners last spring because I was concerned about the practicality of the width. I'm beginning to think I'd be ahead with a haybine and manage the obstacles.

Question - while I recognize the discbine/mower is superior to a sickle haybine in thick, lodged and/or wet hay, I've also read over and over that with stub guards on a haybine, they will cut in just about any conditions too.

I'm thinking with the hp I have available, I could run a 9 ft haybine with stub guards long after the sun goes down and the dew settles in?

Thanks,
Bill

 

[JRSutton]

one thing I'd consider is the size of your tedding/raking equipment.

You might get a little frustrated if your tedder only teds one row as opposed to two full 7' rows.

I know theoretically you can argue it doesn't matter if a tedder X feet wide would cover Y square feet of field no matter what - but in practice it's easier guiding yourself along if you do it by rows, and not partial rows.

Same with raking, especially in light years and second cutting. It can be easier to rake what's left of one cut windrow, but if your rake's not wide enough - then it gets a little messier.

Not the end of the world - but if you can try one before you buy one - I'd recommend that. It's much more pleasant when your equipment matches nicely. But might even turn out that the spacing works better for you at 9'. Again - just depends on what you have.

 

[pms]

Bill,If your serious about doing the hay thing, time is money.In my opinion a rotary discbine is a must.I cut anywhere from 1 acre to 20 acre parcels with a 10 foot discbine.The key is to get it done and get out then move on to the next field.The dry down time with a discbine and tedder is greatly diminished.Makes better hay too.Invest in a higher hp tractor and a good discbine.I like the impeller conditioner discbines for grass hay.Just my two cents.

 

[Heat Houser]

The problem is not the horsepower but rather the weight of your tractor. The haybine puts some sideload on the tractor and if you have enough weight, you will be OK with a haybine. A friend of mine pulled his with a IH460 which is about 55 hp.

 

[paul]

Time wise, any size disc bine is gonna beat a suckle cutter. Drive faster, no plugging, no issues mowing over past windrows. Just drive, and drive fast.

I'd sure look to work some size of disc bine into your operation ASAP.

Paul

 

[vscummins]

Sickle mower if you keep it in good shape will cut a lot of hay maybe not as fast as a disc mower but you can buy a good sickle cheaper

 

[MSS3020]

Bill I have used a j.d. 1209 for years.. Love the way it works..great machine... changing sickle is a pain in the britches...I cut 2 acre parcels and one of my largest is 15 acres. about 50 acres a year total.. Has worked well for me. The only neg. I can tell you about this kind of mow/co is when cutting dry grass but the ground is damp or slightly muddy. The 1209 if it hits a critter hole den, or a slight variation in ground it will plug the cutter and guard to keep it from cutting and then making mohawks (as I call them)dry gound never problem but damp ground can be.. as long as you know the conditions your working in your aware of the problem its not a huge issue but still it happens..I pull mine with a 3020 gas..fyi

 

[Bill VA]

Totally agree in principle - however, our revenue limit is our acreage. Next year we'll probably do about 20 acres. In 4 or 5 years probably max out at about 30ish. 40 acres might be possible, but right now I doubt it.

Not sure how we pencil out larger tractors and discbines with our acrage.

Thanks!
Bill

 

[Bill VA]

Yea - the thought is to upgrade over time into a 9 ft mower or haybine, probably a 9 ft rollabar rake and a 18ish foot 4 basket tedder.

The idea is to cover the acreage we have faster (after work) given the day job brings in the real meat and potatoes vs the hay deal.

Thanks!
Bill

 

[Bill VA]

Agree 100%

We actually are getting along pretty good with my 7ft MF32. The thought is 9ft something would get us on and off the fields faster. Haybine is becoming especially intriguing as we might could kill 3 birds with one stone. 1) 9ft cut (NH488 type machine), 2) condition the hay in the same pass as we cut (vs coming along immediately afterwards with a tedder - though would ted another day), 3) Work within the hp/tractors we have now.

Thanks!
Bill

 

[Bill VA]

Thanks everyone for your replies - always very helpful info.

Good to know a 9ft haybine (or discbine) will work OK in smaller fields. I think that if we snag a haybine deal over the winter or whenever, I want to go 9ft.

Thanks again,
Bill

 

[rpllr]

You are on the right track. A 1120 hesston is a really good mower with stub guards and the center skid plate they will really cut a lot.

 

[Leroy]

You should have no problem with a 9' mower-conditioner even with your 39 horse MF 50. I pilled a 9' case unit for a few years and would have continued if we had kept the cows with a 27 horse Farmall H. And you still cannot mow faster with that disk mower than with the mower or mower-conditioner because of the turns and obstackles you have to watch out for, yes they may cut faster but the safe speed for your tractor is your limiting factor on their speed. And with your conditions you do not have the safty to go above 4 MPH. So would do you no good to have something designed to cut at 10MPH. And the stub guards were not around when I was usuing mine and no problems with the regular guards. I still do not see how the stub guards can work.

 

[JRSutton]

agreed - if a discbine is an option - it'll beat the haybine hands down.

More money - but the time savings might justify it.

Easier maintenance as well.

But they definitely take some horsepower - on average 60 to 90 minimum depending on the mower.

 

[RayP(MI)]

I have a DRUM MOWER. Does a great job of small and irregular fields. When I rake I combine two passes of the mower to make a nice full windrow. Works well for me. Minimal maintenance. A set of blades cost $10 and takes less than 15 minutes.

 

[Ray IN]

The only issue with a 9 footer is pulling it down narrow roads and meeting traffic. In small fields they are fine. Under ideal conditions you can cut about 3.5 to 4 acres per hour with the cyclebar moco. That is in 4th gear in clean alfalfa. Throw in some wet grass or clover, and you are down to 3rd gear and about 2 to 2.5 acres/hour. Non-clog guards will help a lot, but they wear faster and have to be adjusted more frequently (maybe that is just in the sandy soils). A wore out 2510 still has plenty of power to pull my 1219 JD moco. You can get a decent 9 footer for $1200--1800 and a very good one for $3000 in our area.

 

[wolfman]

A 9-footer is better than a 7-footer in small fields. A nine will make square corners better, easier, cleaner.

 

[Super Steve]

I run a 14' hydra-swing mower in fields ranging from .75 to 30 acres. I had a 9' side pull that I wore out. I much prefer the hydra-swing, it gets around a lot better than you would think. When I went mower shopping, I didn't intend on buying such a big mower, but I couldn't find a 9'er in as good of shape as this 14'er was for the price I paid. I run it with a 2wd 80hp tractor and get along fine but could use some more weight. My neighbor had the same mower that he ran with a 65hp fwa cab loader tractor and got along fine aswell.

 

[showcrop]

As already said the Discbine needs appreciably more power than the sickle unit. I was doing well putting the kids through college and got the wife the rock that I couldn't afford when we got married, on the 80 acres of hay. I had an old 70 HP horse and 9 ft sickle Moco. I was still good when I got my fist disc moco, but it had a catastrophic failure after two seasons. I got a much newer 1996 Ford with 96 HP, which was good for the first ten years, but then started to eat all of my profits, due to electronics. When your mower calls for a bigger horse stay away from the electronics!

 

[Northvale - PA]

I use a NI 5209 and run it with a JD 4020 powershift. it is a great combination. I can cut late into the night when I get home from work, dew is no problem. I ran NH haybines for 25 years. I dreaded wet 1st cut hay, but no more. I can mow multiples of 4 acres in an hour, almost to the minute. Then use a 4 star 17' tedder and tedd 4 acres in 30 minutes flat next morning and go to work on time. And actually, that is taking things easy. If hay is really something you want to do for years, seriously consider a bigger tractor and discbine.

 

[Du Farmsabit]

I just got a New Holland 1469, basically a 469 with a tractor. The thing i think that will be good about this is 1. With a self propelled, i can see the fawns in mid June better, and 2. The conditioner rolls are the full 9ft. No auger, or 3 foot hole to shove the hay through. But, i just got it, and haven't tried it yet. And, it's another motor and drive train too,,, lol, sorry, not much help i guess

 

[CenTex Farmall]

FWIW I use a NH 1469 self-propelled haybine. Before that I used a 7' sickle mower. Initially I did not want a self propelled and was looking for a pull behind moco. I found a deal I couldn't refuse on the 1469; had no motor but the cutting end was in rather good shape.
I put on small chevy v6 and it works great. Burns about 1.5 gallons an hour.

I'm happy I went with the self propelled. No driving over anything on the first round. It's a 9' cut and is very maneuverable and you could cut 1 acre fields if you wanted to. You can pull straight into a corner and back straight out. Visibility is excellent and you're always looking forward and can spot things before you hit them. Cut and condition in one pass. I have the chute set so the windrow ends up the same width as the baler pickup. I cut and then 2 days later bale it up. No raking needed unless I'm cutting thin stuff.

 

[hd6gtom]

My neighbor pulls a 488 NH with his wd45 AC. I do not know the condition of his fields,just seen his equipment while there fixing tires. I do know his tractors are in good condition. I would not want to pull a conditioner without live power and good brakes.

 

[Bryce Frazier]

Hey Bill!

You have seen my little 6 acre field, and then the even littler 1 1/2 acres in front of the house...

I pulled an IH 990 Swather through all of it this year, with an undersized tractor! I like it... You seem to have a pretty good sense of operating equipment, you should be able to handle it JUST fine!

Bryce

 

[draftx]

NH 488 and 472 are going to cost more money than other brands, aftermarket parts are widely available. The other brands may cut just as well but wont fetch as much money . 488 will cut small fields just fine. In first cutting heavy grass, crimping rollers will help to get it in the bale a little quicker. Other cuttings not going to make any difference. Me I am never going back to that style of cutter after using a 7 ft 3 point disc cutter. It out cuts the sickle style and never plugs up and you can cut with the dew on it getting more hay down in a day. Whatever you get, I expect you will like it a lot more than the sickle bar you have now.

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 14:37:52 10/05/15) Thanks everyone for your replies - always very helpful info.

Good to know a 9ft haybine (or discbine) will work OK in smaller fields. I think that if we snag a haybine deal over the winter or whenever, I want to go 9ft.

Thanks again,
Bill

I like that you are thinking, as opposed to just going the "bigger is better" route. My brother does 30,000 small squares a year with a NH489. He cuts fields from half an acre to 60 acres with no problem. He's been doing it for years.

Being able to cut with the dew on the ground is a double-edged sword. Grass cut with dew on it will take longer to wilt down to a moisture level where respiration (and nutrient loss) stops. So, sure, get on that big, wide, discbine and cut all night long. You might get more hay faster, but it will be of less quality than hay cut in early morning right after the dew has dried with the afternoon Sun waiting to wilt it quickly and minimize nutrient loss.

If you have a tractor that runs, it's going to be hard to justify a newer tractor with all of the bells and whistles (and, like one of the other replies said, all of the electronics to repair) with the ground that you have. When the hay goes in the cow's (or horse, or goat or whatever) stomach, they won't give a rat's behind whether the hay was cut with a discbine, a haybine, a sicklebar or a hand scythe. Unless you plan on going out and chasing down more land, the economies of scale are limited.


You can cut fields the size that you have just fine with a nine foot haybine. Or a discbine. I will say, though, that a friend of ours that runs a discbine says that you can run them with a lower horsepower tractor, but you can't take advantage of the speed benefits without a high power tractor. A forty horse tractor simply won't pull one up a hill at 10mph...whether it's cutting or not. A forty horse tractor also won't have a drawbar/three point system that is strong enough to have a machine that heavy banging up and down on it at 10mph.

If you go NH, I would suggest going no older than the 489. Models before that had the whole cutterbar, reel and conditioner mechanism as one module that raised/lowered together; which put quite a bit of weight on the cutterbar; unless you have the springs adjusted very, very tightly.

Starting with the 489, NH made the header/cutterbar its own module that floated much more lightly. The conditioning rolls were then mounted fixed in the chassis; so their weight wasn't put on the cutterbar. There was a downfall with them, though...early 489's used a single bolt to hold the drawbar in the chassis. These bolts were prone to cracking and then breaking out the interior end of the drawbar as it moved around before the operator could figure out that there was a problem.

After a couple of years, NH replaced the bolt with a big dowel pin type of setup (with an ear on it and held in place with a smaller bolt). That setup was much more reliable. It's easy to tell the difference; just look under the shields where the end of the drawbar ultimately connects to the chassis.

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 12:10:01 10/06/15)

(quoted from post at 14:37:52 10/05/15) Thanks everyone for your replies - always very helpful info.

Good to know a 9ft haybine (or discbine) will work OK in smaller fields. I think that if we snag a haybine deal over the winter or whenever, I want to go 9ft.

Thanks again,
Bill

I like that you are thinking, as opposed to just going the "bigger is better" route. My brother does 30,000 small squares a year with a NH489. He cuts fields from half an acre to 60 acres with no problem. He's been doing it for years.

Being able to cut with the dew on the ground is a double-edged sword. Grass cut with dew on it will take longer to wilt down to a moisture level where respiration (and nutrient loss) stops. So, sure, get on that big, wide, discbine and cut all night long. You might get more hay faster, but it will be of less quality than hay cut in early morning right after the dew has dried with the afternoon Sun waiting to wilt it quickly and minimize nutrient loss.

If you have a tractor that runs, it's going to be hard to justify a newer tractor with all of the bells and whistles (and, like one of the other replies said, all of the electronics to repair) with the ground that you have. When the hay goes in the cow's (or horse, or goat or whatever) stomach, they won't give a rat's behind whether the hay was cut with a discbine, a haybine, a sicklebar or a hand scythe. Unless you plan on going out and chasing down more land, the economies of scale are limited.


You can cut fields the size that you have just fine with a nine foot haybine. Or a discbine. I will say, though, that a friend of ours that runs a discbine says that you can run them with a lower horsepower tractor, but you can't take advantage of the speed benefits without a high power tractor. A forty horse tractor simply won't pull one up a hill at 10mph...whether it's cutting or not. A forty horse tractor also won't have a drawbar/three point system that is strong enough to have a machine that heavy banging up and down on it at 10mph.

If you go NH, I would suggest going no older than the 489. Models before that had the whole cutterbar, reel and conditioner mechanism as one module that raised/lowered together; which put quite a bit of weight on the cutterbar; unless you have the springs adjusted very, very tightly.

Starting with the 489, NH made the header/cutterbar its own module that floated much more lightly. The conditioning rolls were then mounted fixed in the chassis; so their weight wasn't put on the cutterbar. There was a downfall with them, though...early 489's used a single bolt to hold the drawbar in the chassis. These bolts were prone to cracking and then breaking out the interior end of the drawbar as it moved around before the operator could figure out that there was a problem.

After a couple of years, NH replaced the bolt with a big dowel pin type of setup (with an ear on it and held in place with a smaller bolt). That setup was much more reliable. It's easy to tell the difference; just look under the shields where the end of the drawbar ultimately connects to the chassis.

Nutrient content in leaves is highest at sundown, and lowest at dawn. I did most of my mowing in the evening but quit by 9:30. Not much dew in warm weather.

 

[Andy Martin]

My fields are about the same as yours, I used to do 15,000 square bales with my 479 Haybine or drag mower. NH pitmanless drag mower with 9 ft sickle bar used when we expected to have to rake anyway. Put a lot of hours on the 479 and still use it, but the plain old mowing machine uses less fuel, is easier to unplug and generally maintain. I farm with Farmall M's and a few H's and don't want to go to higher horsepower so I've shied away from disc mowers. You don't need live PTO for a Haybine. In fact I like everything stopping as soon as I hit the clutch. If you're mowing 20 acres I'd advise waiting a few years to get bigger equipment but you might want a 9 ft bar on your mower.

 

[495man]

You can run some 6 disc 8 foot 3 pt disc mowers on that PTO HP

Probably best if you have wheel weight/ballast and front weights for that size of mower.

 

[wvfarmboy]

if you only bale 20 or 30 acres per year a hay bine is just fine 7 ft or 9 ft both are fine only drawback is it is slower than a discbine dont take as much horsepower eather. i would find one now and rebuild over the winter good luck.

 

[Leroy]

They would not be slower if ground conditions dictate a slow ground speed, that is what would determine if you could cut faster. In his size fields to try to get up to speeds some say to run the disk he could not do it as he would still need to slow down for the turns possibly every 500' or less and in his hills if would try to run at those speeds in turning if he did not slide all over the place he would probably roll the tractor so the disk will not cut any more acres than a bar with those considerations. Now if all cuts were a guarter mile or longer and you could stay on seat of tractor with no obstacles to look out for then yes you could mow more acres in a day but those are not his conditions so slow speed is important.

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 06:30:37 10/07/15) They would not be slower if ground conditions dictate a slow ground speed, that is what would determine if you could cut faster. In his size fields to try to get up to speeds some say to run the disk he could not do it as he would still need to slow down for the turns possibly every 500' or less and in his hills if would try to run at those speeds in turning if he did not slide all over the place he would probably roll the tractor so the disk will not cut any more acres than a bar with those considerations. Now if all cuts were a guarter mile or longer and you could stay on seat of tractor with no obstacles to look out for then yes you could mow more acres in a day but those are not his conditions so slow speed is important.

I don't mow that fast, usually 5.5-6 mph, but I see no need to slow down for corners. just lift the mower swing around and go back in.

 

[Leroy]

Are you on flat ground or hills? At one time he said his hills were enough he had trouble loading bales because of them. You put that left tire on downhill side and make a sharp turn and it could get pretty dicy.

 

[lastcowboy32]

Nutrient content in leaves is highest at sundown, and lowest at dawn. I did most of my mowing in the evening but quit by 9:30. Not much dew in warm weather.[/quote]

That is very true.

If you get the hay laid down before the dew hits, it may dry some overnight, but it won't dry as quickly as it would during the day.

I would love to see some data; because there are conflicting processes going on.

Hay cut in the morning after the dew burns off will have slightly lower sugars than hay cut just before sundown.

Once it's cut, though, the hay cut first thing in the morning will wilt faster than hay cut at dusk and burn less nutrients during the process.

To me, though, either one of those methods would be preferable to cutting hay with dew on it.

If you cut with dew at night, the dew has set into the grass and will be mixed right into the swath; so even when the Sun comes out the next day, it won't get at that moisture very well and the hay won't dry very well, and the plants will continue to respire a long time and burn off nutrients.

Cutting with morning dew would seem to be the worst of both worlds. The grass is at its low point of its daily nutrient cycle; then you cut it with the dew mixed right into the swath; so it won't dry worth a crap and waste nutrients for a long time until it wilts down.

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 06:10:31 10/08/15) Nutrient content in leaves is highest at sundown, and lowest at dawn. I did most of my mowing in the evening but quit by 9:30. Not much dew in warm weather.

That is very true.

If you get the hay laid down before the dew hits, it may dry some overnight, but it won't dry as quickly as it would during the day.

I would love to see some data; because there are conflicting processes going on.

Hay cut in the morning after the dew burns off will have slightly lower sugars than hay cut just before sundown.

Once it's cut, though, the hay cut first thing in the morning will wilt faster than hay cut at dusk and burn less nutrients during the process.

To me, though, either one of those methods would be preferable to cutting hay with dew on it.

If you cut with dew at night, the dew has set into the grass and will be mixed right into the swath; so even when the Sun comes out the next day, it won't get at that moisture very well and the hay won't dry very well, and the plants will continue to respire a long time and burn off nutrients.

Cutting with morning dew would seem to be the worst of both worlds. The grass is at its low point of its daily nutrient cycle; then you cut it with the dew mixed right into the swath; so it won't dry worth a crap and waste nutrients for a long time until it wilts down.[/quote]

The way I look at it is that I am capturing the nutrients mowing in the evening, keeping in mind that days are longest in June, and on the longest days it is still light at 9:00. In the morning, the first rays of light are drying my already mowed, high nutrient hay.

 

[Bernie/MA]

I"ve been running a 9 foot Hesston SP since 1971. Wore out one, on my second. A bear to maintain. 7 belts all of which to replace have to remove a shaft or another belt. It"s a dream to mow with tho. Stub guards, mow right thru cut windrows, easy to maneuver around rocks, etc. Biggest enemy is mud. Excellent visibility, had a fawn jump up 4feet in front of me and stopped in time. I had trouble with rundown grass on the right end but found reversing direction every round cures that.