Help - newby 8N owner

[pschomer]

Howdy, I've had my 48 (I think) 8n for a couple years and love it. But it's progressively getting harder to start - so I thought I'd convert to 12v (I'm aware of both sides positives/negatives). Consistent problem with the 6v - difficult start, would start sometimes after I crank for 10-15 mins. But killed a new battery after 1.5 years, not a cheap fix every couple years. Apart from the 12v conversion here's what I've done - New plugs, wires, points, and carb cleaned.
After converting to 12v I've (via a kit) replaced the generator with the alternator, put in new 12v coil, put a resister between the existing 8n ballast resistor and the coil, new 4g battery wires (switched to negative ground), and have re-cleaned the carb. I checked the gap on the point (reset to .015). Checked voltage to the coil when switch is on, at 10v. I checked resistance between original ballast resistor to the bottom of the coil - and it doesn't seem to be as much resistance as it should be (need to retest but it wasn't near the 4ohms needed (or so I've read). Still am not getting anything. Pulled plugs and was getting spark but not sure if is strong enough. I haven't done a compression check, but plenty of suction through the intake and finger over the plug hole seems to have enough pull. Any help/suggestions are welcome. What have I missed or overlooked?

BTW - love this forum and webpage. Have been following for awhile and love all of the advice people give. I think I might be an 8n'er for life. Love this little tractor, but need to get it running before the snow falls (in Iowa).

 

[R Geiger]

R Since you installed a 12 volt coil get rid of the resister between the ballast resister and the coil, it is only for when you use the original 6 volt coil. with it you will not get a spark or a very weak one.
I did a conversion last year and in the instructions were pretty plain on when to use the extra resistor.

 

[pschomer]

I actually did try that as well, but I'll try again. The directions were pretty vague on when to use the extra resistor, but I was trying to get to the 4ohms of resistance and not sure I'll have it without it...but I'll try it.

 

[Dell (WA)]

pschomer........keep yer itchy-twitchy fingers off'n them handy-dandy carb tweek-ums, understand? They aintchur problem as described. Iff'n ya did tweek'em, fess up and we'll tell you how to adjust yer carbie right. Whether the original 6-volt or modern 12-volt 4-nipple dizzy, they BOTH use the same infamous ballat resistor. As fer yer other resistor, ittza 12-to-6 volt converting resistor to be used ONLY iff'n yer using the original 6-volt square can 4-nipple coil. And you are using??? (hint: modern 12-volt square can coil) Now useing yer powers of intuitition, do you need the 12-to-6 volt converting resistor??? Also whether 6-volt or 12-volt, you use the same condenser, the same points and same gap (0.015) and same sparkies. Recommend AutoLite 437's gapped 0.025. As an aside, make certian yer new sparkie wires are copper core, NOT modern string sparkie wire. String sparkie wires are fer yer BelchFire-V8 with computer everything, computers don't like sparkie noise. As a side note, when I replaced the sparkie wires on my eazy starting 6-volt 52-8N, I gotta set of copper core with right angle booties fer Chevy-V8 (cut to fit) from a HOT-ROD shop. Yer good sparkie wires should be a limp as a wet noodle. I wouldn't try to fish yer new sparkie wires thru the tube, modern sparkie wire insulation is so much better. Just plastic tie-wrap yer new sparkie wires to the tube ...or... take the tube OFF, its NOT needed. .......HTH, yer sparkie-meister Dell

 

[HCooke]

"The directions were pretty vague "

Yes they are. Get rid of the extra resistor. You will be fine.

 

[Bob - MI]

I am wondering why you aren't considering other reasons than ignition? It sounds to me that you might have low compression that's keeping you from getting rapid fire.

My 2N (first tractor) had an 8V battery in it when I got it and until it died and I replaced it with a 6V I didn't realize why. The 8V was spinning the engine over faster so it would start easier. Took me a while to develop a starting routine with the 6V but once I did it would start without too much trouble. Unless it was sitting for a long time then I would have to crank for a while until the oil pressure came up. That would give me enough compression to start.

Another thing that helped starting was to hold the clutch down while cranking. That disengages the hydraulic pump load and increases engine speed. Once started you can release the clutch but I bet you will be surprised how you can feel the drag on the engine when you do. Hydraulic and engine oil viscosities play a role in cold climates. Iowa qualifies in the winter.

No matter what I would suggest a compression check. Gives you a baseline to work from and checks a very important box in the troubleshooting sequence.

Best of luck.

 

[Dune Country]

" finger over the plug hole seems to have enough pull"

It should blow your finger [u:712376123c]off[/u:712376123c] of the plug hole

 

[Caryc]

(quoted from post at 13:01:53 11/24/16) I am wondering why you aren't considering other reasons than ignition? It sounds to me that you might have low compression that's keeping you from getting rapid fire.

My 2N (first tractor) had an 8V battery in it when I got it and until it died and I replaced it with a 6V I didn't realize why. The 8V was spinning the engine over faster so it would start easier. Took me a while to develop a starting routine with the 6V but once I did it would start without too much trouble. Unless it was sitting for a long time then I would have to crank for a while until the oil pressure came up. That would give me enough compression to start.

Another thing that helped starting was to hold the clutch down while cranking. That disengages the hydraulic pump load and increases engine speed. Once started you can release the clutch but I bet you will be surprised how you can feel the drag on the engine when you do. Hydraulic and engine oil viscosities play a role in cold climates. Iowa qualifies in the winter.

No matter what I would suggest a compression check. Gives you a baseline to work from and checks a very important box in the troubleshooting sequence.

Best of luck.

Back in the days when most people drove standard transmission cars that's the first thing my dad taught me when starting a car. Hold the clutch down. I always figured that was a standard thing that everyone knew. But, these days there are actually people around that have never driven anything but an automatic trans so I guess that knowledge is not so standard any more. :wink:

 

[HFJ]

[i:969b88406d][b:969b88406d]"Back in the days when most people drove standard transmission cars that's the first thing my dad taught me when starting a car. Hold the clutch down. I always figured that was a standard thing that everyone knew. But, these days there are actually people around that have never driven anything but an automatic trans so I guess that knowledge is not so standard any more. "[/b:969b88406d][/i:969b88406d]

agreed. i always put the clutch in when i start my tractors. it's a hard-coded reflex, i can't even imagine not doing it.

 

[Lester Isby]

Get rid of the resistor that came with the conversion kit.The directions aren't real good,I made the same mistake took
the new resistor off just used the original. now I can start it standing on the ground,turn on the key and gas push the
button the starter make maybe one revaluation and it sets there running

 

[flembo]

Lerster a young girl in my wife's junior choir lost her dad for that very reason he stood next to the tractor when starting it not knowing it was in gear. It happened right in front of the little girl and the mom. I don't know what tractor it was, obviously not a ford n with the safety start switch still working but one of my 8ns came with it jumped out and a key switch to start I put it back to original shortly after getting it. JUST SAYIN.

 

[Caryc]

(quoted from post at 09:27:11 11/26/16) Lerster a young girl in my wife's junior choir lost her dad for that very reason he stood next to the tractor when starting it not knowing it was in gear. It happened right in front of the little girl and the mom. I don't know what tractor it was, obviously not a ford n with the safety start switch still working but one of my 8ns came with it jumped out and a key switch to start I put it back to original shortly after getting it. JUST SAYIN.

Common sense should tell you not to do that. Standing in front of that BIG tire is scary enough to keep me from doing that.

There are so many things that can kill you by being a lazy tractor owner. Lazy, in this case just means failing to take the time to do things right.

There is another unwritten rule...never get off the tractor with the PTO running. How many people actually observe that rule?

 

[pschomer]

Thanks all for the advice. So during this whole ordeal I managed to bend the medal piece on the distributor rotor. So I replaced it - but still no spark. I took a mirror to check if the point was sparking (with the cap off) and it is. So I got to wondering if the 12V coil was bad to I put the new resistor on and put the old 6V coil back on. Now I have plenty of spark in the plugs - so I think the new 12v coil is bad that came with the kit. Still not sure I have the resistance needed, looks like only 1 Ohm resistance in the original resistor and only another 1/2 Ohm in the new resistor.

In any case I'm trying to fire up and it will catch briefly and sputter out. When it "catches" it just whines when I let off the starter button- is that normal?

I know, I know - don't touch the settings on the carb, but it's too late. I've set back to 1 turn out for each idle/fuel screw and need to get the mixture right. But still trying to rule out any other issues. Will too much juice cause the engine not to run?

 

[Dell (WA)]

all rite, ya fingered with yer carbie twist'ems. Heres how I recommend it. Set yer down-pointin' MAINJET to 2-turns and LEAVITT!!! Adjust the side-pointin' IDLEMIX fer FASTEST idle, NOT smoothest idle, understand the difference? Usually about 1/8-1/4 turn. ..........HTH, the amazed Dell

 

[pschomer]

(quoted from post at 13:01:53 11/24/16) I am wondering why you aren't considering other reasons than ignition? It sounds to me that you might have low compression that's keeping you from getting rapid fire....

No matter what I would suggest a compression check. Gives you a baseline to work from and checks a very important box in the troubleshooting sequence.

Best of luck.

Thanks Bob - I just did a compression test (cold test obviously) and the test came back at 60 PSI exactly on all 4 cylinders. So based on what I've researched, that's my problem. Assuming the fix is to pull the head and replace rings and check valve seats?

 

[pschomer]

Thanks Dell, appreciate the feedback. Once I get some good compression I'll definitely follow this. Appreciate your time!

 

[HFJ]

[i:b90829c413][b:b90829c413]"Assuming the fix is to pull the head and replace rings and check valve seats?"[/b:b90829c413][/i:b90829c413]

if you're gonna tear it apart, think about replacing rings, pistons, sleeves and rod bearings while you're in there.

 

[pschomer]

Thanks Dell, appreciate the feedback. Once I get some good compression I'll definitely follow this. Appreciate your time!

 

[pschomer]

Sorry for the multiple posts but realized my compression test was done without the throttle open. So I opened it and have compression at 90 PSI - which is on the low end, yet acceptable range.

Charging the battery back up now - and will try to restart after its fully charged again. Not sure what else to do at this point if it still will not start.

 

[pschomer]

To everyone that replied, thank you for your help! I really appreciated all the help diagnosing and tips to help in my research of my issue.

I'm happy to report that the ole 8N is up and running great again! I still don't know all of the reasons why I was having issue but after the compression test and getting wires/plugs all back on (correctly ) I'm happy to say it started like a gem. Now I'll keep my mits off the carb for awhile.

Thanks all!!

 

[Caryc]

I must be missing something here. I don't understand what the throttle has to do with a compression test.

 

[pschomer]

"I must be missing something here. I don't understand what the throttle has to do with a compression test."

As I understand it, you won't get as much compression if you don't have proper air flow from the intake. If the throttle is set to idle you're not getting as much airflow as you would with the throttle wide open...?

 

[MN_2N]

(quoted from post at 19:12:45 11/26/16)

(quoted from post at 09:27:11 11/26/16) Lerster a young girl in my wife's junior choir lost her dad for that very reason he stood next to the tractor when starting it not knowing it was in gear. It happened right in front of the little girl and the mom. I don't know what tractor it was, obviously not a ford n with the safety start switch still working but one of my 8ns came with it jumped out and a key switch to start I put it back to original shortly after getting it. JUST SAYIN.

Common sense should tell you not to do that. Standing in front of that BIG tire is scary enough to keep me from doing that.

There are so many things that can kill you by being a lazy tractor owner. Lazy, in this case just means failing to take the time to do things right.

There is another unwritten rule...never get off the tractor with the PTO running. How many people actually observe that rule?

Growing up on the farm, we had PTO driven grain augers that we ran without sitting on the tractor though, with that said, one should always be extremely cautious when using the equipment...