Helping with a friend's Super M

[Ken Christopherson]

Hello all. Well, I'll cut right to the chase. A friend of mine has been working on troubleshooting his Super M for quite some time. Originally they pulled the head to fix a blown head gasket and a crack in the head. Ended up being a badly cracked head, and had to obtain a replacement. that was sent off to the machine shop, reworked, and reinstalled. Somewhere in the process of getting it running, they messed with the distributor timing. Couldn't get it right. They had it running, but couldn't get any power out of it. Carburetor is a complete fresh overhaul, so it isn't the carburetor. They thought it then may be valve lash. Adjusted the tappets, still didn't work. I mentioned that an issue that I had run into with an F20 might be solidified sludge in the cam followers/lifters. I recommended he pull the side cover and at least have a look at the lifters to see if there was a large amount of sludge that was throwing off his valve adjustment. In order to do this, though, he had to pull the live hyd pump and did NOT make note of the lag angle when he removed it... SO, the big question is. When he reinstalled the hyd pump, there is no telling if he is one or two teeth off. Something you think he would be able to adjust with rotation of the distributor... He claimed there were no timing marks on the drive gear (not that it would matter without having the front cover off). SO... I recommended he pull a fresh, hot mag off of another tractor and replace the distributor with it just to rule out the distributor and coil... BUT, without knowing whether or not the pump drive is in time with the engine, there is no guarantee that will work.

I know this sounds like a jumbled mess, but I am just trying to help him diagnose and fix the problem over the phone. I feel bad for the young man, as he has been trying to get this thing going right for a couple years. Many of you may have seen him on YouTube - This Old Farm is his channel name (link below). The video I have enclosed has the tractor running well, but it didn't last long. He is again suffering from no power. Will barely move itself in low gear or reverse.

At this point, I feel like we should pull the radiator, bolster, crank pulley, and timing cover... Get everything right as far as gear timing goes, double check valve lash, and then throw a mag on it just to see if it fires, runs, and has power like it should.

On a rare occasion, I have seen distributor gears spin on the distributor shaft... Causing the timing to slowly slip... Could be a coil issue, too? I don't know. Just at a loss for the poor kid. Looking for some insight.
This Old Farms Super M

 

[wore out]

Check the timing with a timing light and also (using the timing light) verify if the centrifugal advance is working.

 

[pete 23]

You do not need to align any marks on the pump drive gear when you have battery ign . You time the distributor when you in stall it. Just pull dist out ofit's drive housing and install it with points just starting to open in normal direction of rotation with number one at top dead center.

If you use a magneto pump has to be timed.

If timing changes after running you have a key or p i n sheared.

 

[Dave BN]

I would go back to the simple things. Fuel flow test. Check plugs and gap, check for good hot spark. Compression test. Check the governor. Check air flow ie air filter. Good suction at carburetor and good pressure at exhaust. Are plug wires installed in the correct firing order and is timing set with #1 at top dead center on COMPRESSION stroke? During these tests you might coincedently find something else wrong we haven't thought of.
Will the engine run good and rev up without trying to move the tractor? If so maybe something in the drive train is bad.
A rebuilt carburetor doesn't always mean it's not a carburetor problem as it may be reassembled wrong or misadjusted.
Just some things to try.
Keep us up to date, we do want to help him and you.
Dave

 

[rustred]

i agree with pete. when my brother restored his super wd9 he got rid of the hyd. pump and i had to modify the old style replacement housing to fit. he had the magneto on his also. timed it all and he told me it just fired right up once he got the tractor finished. but yes get #1 on tdc compression the proceed to install distributor so points are just ready to open with rotor pointing to #1 on cap. then fine tune with a light or timing light or a piece of paper between points. rotate dist. opposite of rotor rotation and as soon as paper will pull out of the points its statically timed... just as good as using a light.

 

[Ken Christopherson]

It's tough for me to diagnose anything because, like you all, I am doing this over electronic communication. I thought the air cleaner might be suspect as well so I told him to disconnect it at the carburetor and try it. No change. I rebuilt the carburetor at the shop that I work at part time doing carburetors and magnetos (and I have been doing them for a number of years, high attention to detail).. So I am 99% confident it isn't the carburetor (not saying it couldn't have gotten some junk from the tank or bowl into it since being reinstalled). It could be a flow issue, either a plugged outlet in the tank, or maybe a plugged vent in the cap.. I just thought of that while siting here typing. I never was much of a distributor guy, I run mags on all my tractors and am very familiar with the H4's. Can rebuild them and F4's in my sleep.

I'll shoot the link over to him for this forum thread, and maybe he can give better clarification as to what he has tried beyond what he has told me. At this point he is about ready to give up on it for the year and let it sit until spring. He has an MD that needs a head gasket that he is putting priority to. I have rebuilt all of his H4 magnetos, as well as his carburetors for his H and M series tractors.

I offered my garage space up if he could get the tractor over to my place so that I could work on it for him and go through things one by one as well.

Another thing I thought of is maybe an intake leak... Either the manifold gasket itself or the carburetor to manifold gasket.

 

[pete 23]

Video shows it running to his satisfaction and if I understand correctly it started to run poorly AFTER that and no power.

Again I say, check that static timing. Without knowing if it has changed or not we are just shooting holes in the sky.

No use putting a timing light on until you know static timing is right. If dist or dist advance is worn or shot the light will miss lead someone who is not familiar with advance mechanism.

If static timing is good, then you could put a light on and see if it advances and retards and it most surely will not fully retard to top dead center unless advance is in perfect condition.

 

[Connor29]

Hello all. This is my SM that Kenny has kindly started this thread for. For the most part, he got all the details correct but theres some things that are incorrect or could be added to.
First correction: the cylinder head thats on the tractor is the same one we pulled the first time. The reason for originally pulling the cylinder head is the tractor had a considerable loss in power (we think due to overheating but we never really determined a full cause) and found that our compression was quite low. We pulled the head and brought it to a cylinder head shop in Rogers, MN and had them redo the head. Magnaflux and fix found cracks as well as new valves and the such. After they had gone through doing the head (failing to call us with any updates and asking for opinion, just doing the work) they notified us upon pick up that there was a crack they would not weld but we could run block sealer through it and it would be fine. Unfortunately this solution did not hold up very long and we had to pull the head yet again and bring to a shop a trusted friend said to use and they found and fixed the crack and did tremendous work (Carlton Automotive Machine is the shop in Duluth, MN. Definitely use them if you need block/head work done!!)! Now, after reinstalling the head for the first time we were attempting to start the tractor again. Keep in mind nothing timing wise has been touched between removal and installation of the head. We were having trouble getting it started back up after installing it the first time and the dumb person my dad can be decided it would be smart to adjust the timing which had never before been an issue. After he did adjust the timing it had started up and ran but it now ran poorly. Very poorly in-fact, and the same way it continues to run now almost 3 years later. The only real major change that happened besides head work between pulling the head the first time and reinstallation was that I had the carburetor professionally rebuilt by Kenny himself at a very reputable shop he does work for. So, now after having pulled the head twice, adjusting the valves countless times and constantly changing timing around in an attempt to get it to run smoother its still making no progress. I have yet to do a compression check on it again, but one thing I will note is the one time we threw a timing light on the tractor when the marks lined up with the light the tractor loaded up to a stall. And thats what Ive always noticed with this, every time the timing gets anywhere near to being a smooth runner it loads up and will die unless you adjust it back to where it runs poorly. This is the story I can tell to the best of my ability. If you want more details then feel free to ask and Ill answer to the best of my ability. Thanks in advance for any and all of your help!

 

[Old weldor]

A few years ago I bought an H Farmall that had been tipped on its side and hadnt been ran for two years! I got it running and at first it seemed to run well, after a while I had to mess with the distributor to get it to start, finally it refused to start so I put the timing marks on tdc and pulled the distributor out and the pin in the drive gear was sheared off, replaced the pin and put dist back in on tdc and she started and ran good!

 

[used red MN]

Did a little looking around about timing marks on an M. Most Ms as well as the Super have 3 marks on the pulley. Two close together and one off by itself. The single one is for lining up a grease zerk for the clutch through a hole in the bottom of the bell housing. If you were trying to adjust your timing to that mark your tractor would indeed have run crappy. The close together marks are for the ignition timing the first one that passes the pointer in normal rotation is top dead center. The next one is 5 degrees after top dead center. This was for setting magneto engines to be hand cranked. All this info was taken from an old YT post I am am linking, and to be honest I took Pete 23s info there
as being solid because he seems to be quite knowledgeable on IH stuff. If the timing is actually moving around it could be that a pin is shearing in the distributor drive or something is going a bad way up in the timing gears. There is a way to check cam timing but we will cover that if absolutely needed. Last but most IMPORTANTLY, most often when I have seen a Farmall M that cannot pull itself in 1st gear it is because it is not getting enough fuel. You say the carb was ..professionally.. rebuilt, no rebuilder can make gas flow to the carb. You know there is a screen in the inlet fitting of the carb where the fuel line connects? Have you double checked it? Double checking Pete 23s list should either find the problem or at least definitely rule out a lot of ..what ifs.. I have met Ken he is a nice guy like most folks on these forums. I have steered a few people to some of his videos for Farmall help. We will see what you come up with.
Edit: My mistake, the list of items I meant to refer to was posted by Dave BN.
I will add checking the fuel flow is also a good idea, which goes along with my suggestion about the fuel filter or screen. Pull the carb drain plug after the initial flow that empties the carb float bowl the flow should continue to flow at a rate that fills a pint measure every 3 minutes. That is 2.5 gallon an hour, which is actually on the slim side. A fully loaded M will take nearly 3 gallon and hour. Again let us know what you find.
Previous H M timing post


This post was edited by used red MN on 10/18/2021 at 07:53 am.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

What happens when you go past where it runs poorly with the timing? Farther away from "right." I've had much better experience timing these tractors by ear than chasing the timing light.

Do you have the plug wires in the right order? 2 and 3 are easy to get swapped even though you swear to God you got it right, and you triple-checked before you tried to start the tractor and it turns out they were STiLL wrong.

Pull plug wires one by one: Listen for a change, then replace and pull the next. Where you hear no change in how the engine runs, that's the cylinder(s) that aren't firing.

 

[D Slater]

Just posting to give more info, not to be critical. Can't be sure some of the early SM didn't have the same marks on pulley for timing and other as a M. Most SM and SMTA only have one notch on pulley. Late M with 12 inch clutch and supers had no need for a mark to grease pilot bearing, they were sealed. Thinking I figured out at one time the two marks close together were just so some people wouldn't mix the pilot bearing grease mark up with the TDC mark. As pete already mentioned with a distributor all is needed is to turn engine to number one compression stroke with notch at pointer and turn rotor to point to post in distributor cap the wire to first spark plug. Then if needed pull the T shaped drive shaft into distributor and install it as needed to put drive lug and rotor in needed spots. When static time is set the rotor may not be exact in center of distributor post when distributor is moved so points just start to open. with static time set you can check with a light to see if notch starts falling back from pointer as RPM increase. Can't remember without looking the distance to max advance. SM came with 30 degrees advance but same were changed to 22 degrees. Poster didn't say if flat top pistons or other. May not be the whole problem but would suspect ring sealing condition if coolant was getting in cylinders for extended time.

 

[D Slater]

Did the engine have flat top pistons or something else? How did the cylinder walls look? Any damage to piston tops? Only way to time the biggest part of these old tractors to TDC with a timing light is if the distributor is in good condition and the engine will idle real slow. Most will be timed slow with a light to TDC. Do you get black smoke unless you move distributor back, or black smoke a lot? Best way with a light is to mark front pulley to the max advance and with engine running wide open put the max advance mark to pointer. IH started putting those notches on 400 tractors.

 

[F-Dean]

Use a twisted belt to turn the engine and make the adjustments described above.

 

[Old weldor]

A few years ago I bought an H Farmall that had been tipped on its side and hadnt been ran for two years! I got it running and at first it seemed to run well, after a while I had to mess with the distributor to get it to start, finally it refused to start so I put the timing marks on tdc and pulled the distributor out and the pin in the drive gear was sheared off, replaced the pin and put dist back in on tdc and she started and ran good!

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 07:25:26 10/18/21) Use a twisted belt to turn the engine and make the adjustments described above.

The distributor is on the same side as the belt pulley on these tractors. It's not the smartest idea to be working over a moving belt in general, but even more so if you're inexperienced and trying to fiddle with something you don't understand.