Hydraulic Oil

[Tall T]

I just changed the spin on filter on my hydraulic return hose and I rooted through my cans of oils and such and came up with two partial cans of Hydraulic Jack oil.

Would this do to top up my Jubilee filter change oil loss, until I get around to a complete change of the hydraulic oil?

One can of jack oil is rated iso-VG-32
the other partial can is Permatex Hydraulic Jack oil.

Terry

 

[souNdguy]

if you plan on a real service later, yep.. you can top off the hyds only section with iso32 oils... though I always use UTF fluids in case of intermix with the diffy via way of pto intersump seal.

a quart in 2 gallons won't make much difference either way.. though... heck. atf could be dumped in in a pinch...

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 17:07:33 06/07/14) if you plan on a real service later, yep.. you can top off the hyds only section with iso32 oils... though I always use UTF fluids in case of intermix with the diffy via way of pto intersump seal.

a quart in 2 gallons won't make much difference either way.. though... heck. atf could be dumped in in a pinch...

Now that I've installed a new hydraulic filter I'm thinking it would be stupid to load the new filter up with dirt from the old oil . . .
and since I can't use the beast till I restore my rims and get the tires back on, I should drain and refill the hydraulic system with new fluid. The oil is black. Your "real service". :wink:

 

[souNdguy]

if I saw black oil in the hyds I'd change it. likely overhearted.. or heavily oxidized and perhaps carrying some moisture too.

dump in a quart of diesel and circulate it and then drain and refill.

 

[Tall T]

Thanks for the flush heads-up.
So diesel won't do any harm and whatever lingers behind will be compatible enough with the new fluid?

So I guess I'm going to load up my new filter anyway unless I screw the old one back on for the flush procedure.

Do you ever let it run for a few seconds after draining to clear the pump and lines too?

Thanks,
Terry

 

[Tall T]

One more Hydraulic oil question.

I searched a lot last night to learn more about prices and types of Hydraulic fluid and the answer I wanted most I couldn't find.

All the listings for quote "Tractor/Hydraulic Transmission oil",
as in the synthetic Amsoil one that I may buy (I'm still a dealer of sorts" never specifies if these oils suited to trans, Hydraulic system and Diff can be used where each is a separate reservoir like the Jube.

My guess is that this is what SoundN meant by using an oil that will be OK for the Diff if it happens to leak by the inner seal.

In short, can I use this in my Jube Hydraulics?
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/hydraulic-oil/synthetic-tractor-hydraulic-transmission-oil-sae-5w-30/

"Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil SAE 5W-30
For All Weather Performance in Farm and Commercial Equipment Formulated for combinations of transmission, hydraulic systems, final drives, power take-off systems and wet brakes. Engineered specifically to meet the tough applications of heavy-duty farm and industrial equipment as well as commercial and residential lawn tractors. Ideal for lawn tractor hydrostatic transmissions."

OR THIS
http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/567.aspx

Thanks,
Terry

 

[souNdguy]

the very thin diesel mix should be fine.. it's a staple i do to all my tractors, many others here use it as well.

i wouldn't run it with no oil. but i have taken lines and blown them out

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 11:49:34 06/08/14) One more Hydraulic oil question.

I searched a lot last night to learn more about prices and types of Hydraulic fluid and the answer I wanted most I couldn't find.

All the listings for quote "Tractor/Hydraulic Transmission oil",
as in the synthetic Amsoil one that I may buy (I'm still a dealer of sorts" never specifies if these oils suited to trans, Hydraulic system and Diff can be used where each is a separate reservoir like the Jube.

My guess is that this is what SoundN meant by using an oil that will be OK for the Diff if it happens to leak by the inner seal.

In short, can I use this in my Jube Hydraulics?
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/hydraulic-oil/synthetic-tractor-hydraulic-transmission-oil-sae-5w-30/

"Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil SAE 5W-30
For All Weather Performance in Farm and Commercial Equipment Formulated for combinations of transmission, hydraulic systems, final drives, power take-off systems and wet brakes. Engineered specifically to meet the tough applications of heavy-duty farm and industrial equipment as well as commercial and residential lawn tractors. Ideal for lawn tractor hydrostatic transmissions."

OR THIS
http://lubricants.petro-canada.ca/en/products/567.aspx

Thanks,
Terry

The "tractor transmission oils" are called "universal tractor transmission fluid" (UTTF) by the industry. They are a specially formulated oil designed for use in tractors or heavy equipment that has a common sump for transmssion, final drive, and hydraulic systems.. They have properties that make them a both good gear lube and also a good hydraulic fluid and are also formlated for use with wet disc brakes. With a few exceptions they generally have a viscosity of ~9.5 cSt @100c (SAE 30 engine/SAE 80 gear oil/ISO 68 hydraulic oil)). They also have a high viscosity index( >130) which makes them good all season performers. Almost any UTTF is fine in any or all of the sumps on an NAA.

"Hydraulic oil" is a different animal and is designed for use solely in hydraulic systems that have a dedicated reservoir. They contain relatively low levels of EP anti-wear additives and are not well suited fo use in transmissions or final drives NAA should only be used in the hydraulic reservoir. They are available in a number of ISO viscosity grades and the conventional oils have a viscosity index in the 95-100 range which means they are seasonal oils. ISO 68 is roughly equivalent to SAE 80 gear oil which was the original Ford recommendation for summer use in the NAA hydraulic system. ISO 32 and 46 are a lower viscsoties and would be suitable for cold weather use in an NAA.

Amsoil is a fully synthetic oil and it and other fully synthetic hydraulic oils have viscosity indices in the >130 range. A synthetic hydraulic oil could be used year round in the NAA hydraulic system if you want to pop for a more expensive oil. Unless you like changing oils with the seasons a premium UTTF is a good bit cheaper and in most climates will work just fine year round.

TOH

 

[Tall T]

Thanks old timer,

but the question remains,

Hydraulic fluid alone cannot be used where multiple components share the same oil

BUT

can an oil specially formulated for use in Transmissions, Rear Diffs AND Hydraulic systems, be used in a Hydraulic system
alone that has a dedicated reservoir like the NAA

. . . or is it just that multi-purpose Hydraulic oil is a waste of money because much of the additive package specific to the Trans and Diff is wasted on the Hydraulic system alone?

Thanks,
Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 11:10:32 06/09/14) Thanks old timer,

but the question remains,

Hydraulic fluid alone cannot be used where multiple components share the same oil

BUT

can an oil specially formulated for use in Transmissions, Rear Diffs AND Hydraulic systems, be used in a Hydraulic system
alone that has a dedicated reservoir like the NAA

. . . or is it just that multi-purpose Hydraulic oil is a waste of money because much of the additive package specific to the Trans and Diff is wasted on the Hydraulic system alone?

Thanks,
Terry

(quoted from post at 08:04 on 06/09/14)

Almost any UTTF is fine in any or all of the sumps on an NAA.

I answered that quite clearly in my original post. A UTTF is no more expensive than a ordinary hydraulic oil, in many cases it's actually cheaper, and works just fine in the NAA's dedicated hydraulic system. The AMSOIL product is an excellent but very pricey UTF. A premium UTF at places like NAPA or TSC runs about $8-$10 per gallon and unless you operate the tractor in the Mojave or at the South Pole I doubt you could ever discern a difference in the two.

TOH

 

[Tall T]

Ooops!
Sorry I missed the point!
Thanks again!!

And good point about the temperature factor. I have neither extreme here so i probably should do as you say and go for premium conventional. At that lower price I can do more changes. My jube has a nice Hydraulic filtration system on it.
I have a new guage for it on the way.

Just phoned our local auto parts and he says he has SPIRAX (multiple use; ie., Hydraulics/trans/Diff) for $5.00/quart.
He couldn't find the letters UTTF but i think he was only reading from the conventional hydraulic data.

Is this SPIRAX a good choice for me?
http://www.tscstores.com/189L-SPIRAX-HYDRAULIC-TRANSMISSION-OIL-P9042.aspx

Terry

 

[NNP]

(quoted from post at 08:39:06 06/09/14) Ooops!
Sorry I missed the point!
Thanks again!!

And good point about the temperature factor. I have neither extreme here so i probably should do as you say and go for premium conventional. At that lower price I can do more changes. My jube has a nice Hydraulic filtration system on it.
I have a new guage for it on the way.

Just phoned our local auto parts and he says he has SPIRAX (multiple use; ie., Hydraulics/trans/Diff) for $5.00/quart.
He couldn't find the letters UTTF but i think he was only reading from the conventional hydraulic data.

Is this SPIRAX a good choice for me?
http://www.tscstores.com/189L-SPIRAX-HYDRAULIC-TRANSMISSION-OIL-P9042.aspx

Terry

TheOldHokie has got you covered on the technical explanation. He knows his oils!
From your pic, I'd like to add...
Your tractor still has its original vane pump.
Probably not rebuilt as kits for the vane pump are expensive.
So, with a worn vane pump, which sometimes doesn't like thin oil,
if UTF gives you any trouble, just run a good quality 80-90 gear oil in all 3 chambers.
Since you said you don't have to deal with frigid extremes, it'll be fine.
(if your vane pump is in excellent shape, the UTF will work fine though)

ps very nice tractor. wish I owned it. I've always liked NAA's, have 3 right now. Even with their 2 year only 'redheaded stepchild' not compatible with anything hydraulic system, and the silly 8N style hubs

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 11:39:06 06/09/14) Ooops!
Sorry I missed the point!
Thanks again!!

And good point about the temperature factor. I have neither extreme here so i probably should do as you say and go for premium conventional. At that lower price I can do more changes. My jube has a nice Hydraulic filtration system on it.
I have a new guage for it on the way.

Just phoned our local auto parts and he says he has SPIRAX (multiple use; ie., Hydraulics/trans/Diff) for $5.00/quart.
He couldn't find the letters UTTF but i think he was only reading from the conventional hydraulic data.

Is this SPIRAX a good choice for me?
http://www.tscstores.com/189L-SPIRAX-HYDRAULIC-TRANSMISSION-OIL-P9042.aspx

Terry

Sorry - should be UTTO (Universal Tractor Transmission Oil) not UTTF . Be careful - there are a number of different products in the Shell Spirax family. And you might want to look at the Donax product family as well.

And I should be careful as well!!! I just reread the specification sheet and realized Spirax S4 CX is not a UTTO . It is heavy duty mono-grade transmission oil similar to Caterpillar TO-4. The UTTO variant would be Spirax S4 TXM. I have edited my post to reflect the differences.

Spirax S4 CX 30 is a "heavy duty" transmission oil and would be an acceptable choice but is about $30-$50 more per pail than TSC's house brand UTF and it is basically a monograde SAE 80 gear oil.

Spirax S4 TXM is a UTTO and unlike the CX variant it is a multi-grade oil with a VI of 138.

Here are links to the data sheets for both Shell oils:

[u:ade2af517f]Shell Spirax S4 CX 30[/u:ade2af517f]

[u:ade2af517f]Shell Spirax S4 TXM[/u:ade2af517f]

Sooner or later these discussions always get to this point so here we go. The original Ford specification for the NAA hydraulic system was "Ford M4864-A - Mild EP SAE 80 hydrauilc oil" and they recommended thinning it with a lighter grade oil at temps below 10F. As a physical measurement reference point the viscosity specification for SAE 80 grade oil is 7.0 to 10.9 cSt @ 100C. All of these oils are 9.5 cSt @100C or higher and on the very high end of the original Ford viscosity specification. The UTTO oils also have a much higher viscosity index than either the Spirax S4 CX or the original 1950's Ford oil so they won't thicken as quickly when the temps drop and won't need to be thinned to remain pumpable in cold weather

As NNP mentions the vane pumps are 60 years old and often worn to the point where they have trouble making pressure when the oil gets HOT. However this is not because UTTO type oils are "too thin". UTTO type oils are in fact at the very top of the viscosity range Ford recommended - SAE 80. The simple fact is the old vane pumps won't make pressure on ANY SAE 80 oil because the pumps are slap worn out and the vanes bypass too much oil. Service parts for those pumps are no longer available and a common work around is to use a heavier (SAE 90) oil.

So you might want to investigate the condition of your pump before investing too much money in a high dollar hydraulic oil. If it is worn out you basically have two choices - you can use the heavy oil work around or replace the pump. The traditional fix is to replace it with the piston pump used on the later models. The piston pump conversion is pricey - you need a good rebuilt piston pump as well as the hydrauilc lines that go with it. - figure on $700 or more. I have a fix for that as well - a retrofit of a new inexpensive modern gear pump that uses the existing hydraulic lines. Costs a bit more than a thicker oil but a whole lot less than a piston pump retrofit ;-)

TOH

 

[Tall T]

Thanks for the goldmine of important info men and all the effort you put into it TOH!

I just got off the phone with my local auto parts store manager.
I ordered 2 gallons of spirax yesterday, believing it to be UTTO
and he said he would deliver it. He's interested in seeing everything you've just written and gave me his email.

He's going to phone me when the oil gets in on the ferry and tell me exactly what the specifications on the jugs are.

When he does I'll pass them along for your approval before I have them delivered.

My hydraulic system seems to be functioning perfectly but my knowledge in that "vane" is limited . . . so the extent of my pump's wear remains to be seen. Maybe I'll get lucky (again) and find that this pump was rebuilt back when the task wasn't so foreboding or expensive.

Thanks again,
Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 12:07:39 06/10/14) Thanks for the goldmine of important info men and all the effort you put into it TOH!

I just got off the phone with my local auto parts store manager.
I ordered 2 gallons of spirax yesterday, believing it to be UTTO
and he said he would deliver it. He's interested in seeing everything you've just written and gave me his email.

He's going to phone me when the oil gets in on the ferry and tell me exactly what the specifications on the jugs are.

When he does I'll pass them along for your approval before I have them delivered.

My hydraulic system seems to be functioning perfectly but my knowledge in that "vane" is limited . . . so the extent of my pump's wear remains to be seen. Maybe I'll get lucky (again) and find that this pump was rebuilt back when the task wasn't so foreboding or expensive.

Thanks again,
Terry

I don't do approvals but I do provide research ;-)
I am a retired techno-geek and when techno-geeks retire they get bored.
When they get bored they start reading more, researching, and learning about any and all new things that pique their interest.
I hang out on the old tractor forums where lots of interesting machinery problems and old lubricants get discussed a lot. The more I poked into the lubricants world the more interested I became in the physics and chemistry of lubrication. The WWW is a wealth of information that you would have had to go to school for years to acquire a decade ago so here I am - a self made amateur tribologist ;-)


I did a bit more "research" and it seems that some (all??) of the old Shell Donax family of lubricants have been assimilated into the Spirax family and redesignated as Spirax S4 products:

Donax TD UTTO --> Spirax S4 TXM.
Donax TC xx --> Spirax S4 CX xx where xx = the J300 viscosity grade

I guess if you can't invent new products you just change their names ;-)

TOH

 

[Tall T]

The Oil Has Arrived and the parts manager just sent me a photo of the label

When I open it in a picture viewing program the photo is right side up, but here the damned thing is sideways.

DOESN'T look like the right stuff to me and certainly not what they said they were bringing in.
There is no Transmission designation on the label, just Universal FLUID whatever that is supposed to cover.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 13:25:39 06/10/14) I sold Amsoil synthetic oils for several years and in the course of that learned a lot about engine oils. I was constantly explaining to people what 10W40 actually meant and rattling on forever about the constituents of additive packages. No one I ever met from mechanics to dealers ever knew what the multigrade designations really meant or when and why non-detergents were called for.

For example; that the W does not stand for "weight" and the W belongs only to the 10 and stands for that oils flow viscosity at 0 degrees F . . . measured in units centipose, as I recall, that is totally different from the measuring system units rating the 40 -- which is that oil's viscosity measured at a standardized average oil temperature under operating conditions (220). The key to a multigrade's performance is the viscosity index improver that allows for a thin oil for startup flow. Those VI improvers thicken with heat which offsets that oil's natural tendency to thin when hot thus achieving the desired 40 at operating temp. Blah, blah . . . you probably know all this anyway.

Totally false assumptions run rampant in the motor oil world.

I had two tow truck fleets over in vancouver running on synthetic oil and was drilling, tapping, draining and plugging GM torque converters to drain out the conventional auto trans fluids -- Fords and others have torque converter drain plugs. Now there's a hair raising procedure I'm glad to be done with.

You really shouldn't get me started:[list:2835560648][*:2835560648]The engine oil viscosity technical specification is SAE publication J300 and viscosity requyirements can be found here: [u:2835560648]SAE J300 Viscosity Requirements Table[/u:2835560648][*:2835560648]Engine oils are tested for kinemetic viscosity at 100C using a glass viscometer and the units of measurement are centistoke[*:2835560648]Since many petroleum oils are non-Newtonian engine oils are also tested for dynamic high temperature high shear (HTHS) viscosity at 150C using a rotary viscometer. The units of measurement are centpoise.[*:2835560648]Winter (W) grades are tested for cold cranking viscosity in a Cold Cranking Simulator and the unit of measurement is centipoise. The test temperature varies by grade from -10C for grade 25W to -35C for grade 0W.[*:2835560648]The W grades are also tested for dynamic pumping viscosity using yet another simulator and the units of measurement are also centipoise. The test temperatures vary with grade from -15C for grade 25W to -40C for grade 0W[*:2835560648] To be labeled a multigrade an oil must pass both the indicated W tests and the indicated operating temeperature tests.[*:2835560648]Generally speaking oils labeled as a mono-grade will not pass ANY of tests in one of the series - e.g a SAE 10W oil cannot pass any HOT test and a SAE 30 cannot pass any COLD test[*:2835560648]Modern refining now produces base oils (Groups III, IV, and V) that are natively multigrade without using any viscosity modifiers. They can be formulated into multigrades with really wide spreads like SAE 0W40 with relatively small additions of VI improvers[*:2835560648]Modern high end VI improvers are remarkably shear stable compared to the ones used two or even one decade ago[/list:u:2835560648]I grew up in West Virginia's "chemical valley" (Charleston) and was babtised into the better living though chemistry faith a long time ago ;-)

TOH

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 13:25:39 06/10/14) The Oil Has Arrived and the parts manager just sent me a photo of the label

When I open it in a picture viewing program the photo is right side up, but here the damned thing is sideways.

DOESN'T look like the right stuff to me and certainly not what they said they were bringing in.
There is no Transmission designation on the label, just Universal FLUID whatever that is supposed to cover.

It is definitly not Shell Spirax of any form!! It is one of a zillion generic UTTO's and it is made by SureGuardOil. I found their catalog but no technical data sheet. Don't spend any more for it than TSC or Walmart wants for their Premium UTTO.

TOH

 

[Tall T]

Ha Ha, mission accomplished -- got you started.

I'm hanging on a ledge waiting for your read on that no-name,
or no recognizable brand hydraulic FLUID.

_____________________

Ah ha, my smelling-of-a rat confirmed. You were typing at the same time I was.

Thanks,
TT

 

[Tall T]

So am I right in having settled on wanting the Hydraulic oil that is also applicable to transmissions as well?

If so, can you give me just a few choices of tried and true, non-Walmart level generic stuff and I'll present those brand names to the parts guys for ordering?

thanks,
Terry

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 15:16:12 06/10/14) So am I right in having settled on wanting the Hydraulic oil that is also applicable to transmissions as well?

If so, can you give me just a few choices of tried and true, non-Walmart level generic stuff and I'll present those brand names to the parts guys for ordering?

thanks,
Terry

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. It's a preference and I base my buying choices primarily on price and conveneence. The UTTO is inexpensive, works just fine, and can be used in ALL of the sumps. IF I had an NAA that would be my choice. I use Traveller Premium UTTO from TSC in all of my tractors with one exception. I use it in the older gear drive Kubota compact but not my late model Kubota hydrostatic garden tractor on steroids. I pop for their UDT simply because I don't want any warranty issues. When the warranty period is up it will be getting the generic brew.

TOH