Ignition problem - bad parts?

[JDemaris]

I started having an ignition problem with my Deere 1010 gas-engine crawler. I've had it for many years, but this past week is the first time I've ever used it, all day and every day for over a week moving dirt. After putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of gas through it, I'm wishing it was a diesel. Also wish I had compression-igntion instead of spark-ignition.

The problem doesn't have anything to do with Deere, and I suspect it's not a problem with the Delco ignition design either . . . but at this point I'm not sure.

Engine started breaking up, skipping, then quitting. Once cooled down, it ran OK again for awhile. Got worse and worse and then finally died.

So, I was not near my shop, and just wanted the thing running so I could drive it TO the shop. Pulled the distributor cap off and looked at the cap, rotor, and points. All looked fine. Note that all was put in new not long ago. Last year and maybe 100 engine hours ago?
I then suspected maybe a bad ignition resistor - so I bypassed it. That did not work. I then suspected a bad coil crapping out when hot. So, I took one out of a 92 Subaru, stuck it in and it then ran again. Thought I had it fixed - but half an hour later, it started doing it all over again.
So, I then pulled the coil wire out of the distribtor cap and checked spark. It was very strong. Then, I checked spark coming out of the cap from one of the poles that goes to a spark plug. Nothing. Not a hint of spark. So, I then figured the cap was bad. Maybe a bad center pole?
Luckily, I had a 1953 Case DC nearby with the same Delco distributor. I swapped caps - and still no good.
Well, I then swapped rotors and that fixed the problem. Started right up and ran great. Ends up the new rotor had a carbon-track in it that was shorting out power from the coil to the rotating metal stud it attaches to. Very hard to see and at a glance, just looks like a plastic-casting mark.
I later got a another new rotor from NAPA. After a day, the new rotor developed the same problem.
So, now - I'm wondering what the heck is going on. I've seen caps and rotors carbon-track when they get really old and see a lot of use. But new ones?
I'm wondering now if the parts we get are just cheap junk and there is no need to put any quality into them - since few people actually use these machines anymore? The NAPA rotor is not even Chinese. It's made in Mexico (at least it's American). I DO know for sure, that OEM AC Delco parts are junk and I refuse to buy from them any more.
So, I'd like to fix this thing without keeping a bucket full of new rotors around. I've never seen this happen, like this, before.
One thing I kind of wondering about but have not verified is this. Depending on the ignition points gap, or the position of the distribtor, spark can occur when the rotor is actually in between poles. i suspect that causes a spike in very high voltage to jump that extra gap - but I don't recall it ever been an issue before.

For now, I stuck the old worn rotor back in from my Case DC. I guess if that old rotor does not get the same problem, I'm going to assume that the new parts are just plain crap.

If so, where does one have assurance of quality new parts? Don't say from Deere. I bought some there and they were made in China.

There was a time when these old tractors got used hard. So, if a particular brand of part failed often, word got around. Now? I suspect there is no incentive for anybody to provide a quality part. But, I'm hoping I'm wrong.

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[55 50 Ron]

Just a comment about Delco parts. A few years ago I was having trouble with JD condensers in my model 50. It was suggested here on YT that I should try AC Delco and the Delco part number was given. I tried that and haven"t had a problem since. It said "assembled in Mexico" on that Delco condenser box.

 

[keh]

Check your ignition switch. I had similar problems on a 2010 JD and it ws the switch.

KEH

 

[Uncle Ernie]

Yep! Your condenser is bad.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 10:39:46 11/13/09) I started having an ignition problem with my Deere 1010 gas-engine crawler. I've had it for many years, but this past week is the first time I've ever used it, all day and every day for over a week moving dirt. After putting a couple of hundred dollars worth of gas through it, I'm wishing it was a diesel. Also wish I had compression-igntion instead of spark-ignition.

The problem doesn't have anything to do with Deere, and I suspect it's not a problem with the Delco ignition design either . . . but at this point I'm not sure.

Engine started breaking up, skipping, then quitting. Once cooled down, it ran OK again for awhile. Got worse and worse and then finally died.

So, I was not near my shop, and just wanted the thing running so I could drive it TO the shop. Pulled the distributor cap off and looked at the cap, rotor, and points. All looked fine. Note that all was put in new not long ago. Last year and maybe 100 engine hours ago?
I then suspected maybe a bad ignition resistor - so I bypassed it. That did not work. I then suspected a bad coil crapping out when hot. So, I took one out of a 92 Subaru, stuck it in and it then ran again. Thought I had it fixed - but half an hour later, it started doing it all over again.
So, I then pulled the coil wire out of the distribtor cap and checked spark. It was very strong. Then, I checked spark coming out of the cap from one of the poles that goes to a spark plug. Nothing. Not a hint of spark. So, I then figured the cap was bad. Maybe a bad center pole?
Luckily, I had a 1953 Case DC nearby with the same Delco distributor. I swapped caps - and still no good.
Well, I then swapped rotors and that fixed the problem. Started right up and ran great. Ends up the new rotor had a carbon-track in it that was shorting out power from the coil to the rotating metal stud it attaches to. Very hard to see and at a glance, just looks like a plastic-casting mark.
I later got a another new rotor from NAPA. After a day, the new rotor developed the same problem.
So, now - I'm wondering what the heck is going on. I've seen caps and rotors carbon-track when they get really old and see a lot of use. But new ones?
I'm wondering now if the parts we get are just cheap junk and there is no need to put any quality into them - since few people actually use these machines anymore? The NAPA rotor is not even Chinese. It's made in Mexico (at least it's American). I DO know for sure, that OEM AC Delco parts are junk and I refuse to buy from them any more.
So, I'd like to fix this thing without keeping a bucket full of new rotors around. I've never seen this happen, like this, before.
One thing I kind of wondering about but have not verified is this. Depending on the ignition points gap, or the position of the distribtor, spark can occur when the rotor is actually in between poles. i suspect that causes a spike in very high voltage to jump that extra gap - but I don't recall it ever been an issue before.

For now, I stuck the old worn rotor back in from my Case DC. I guess if that old rotor does not get the same problem, I'm going to assume that the new parts are just plain crap.

If so, where does one have assurance of quality new parts? Don't say from Deere. I bought some there and they were made in China.

There was a time when these old tractors got used hard. So, if a particular brand of part failed often, word got around. Now? I suspect there is no incentive for anybody to provide a quality part. But, I'm hoping I'm wrong.

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Another thing that will result in higher voltage at distributor is the use of resistance ign wires and/or resistor plugs. I doubt that you use those, but thought I would mention it.

 

[JDemaris]

The thing with Delco is . . . they are basically a rebrander now. Instead of making quality parts, they usually just buy from someone else and put their name on it. I assume some are still OK, but I also now that some are absolute crap.

I got in a dispute with Delco tech people not long ago and will never buy anything from Delco again. They are knowingly selling certain parts that they know are inferior and refuse to stand behind them. That is the AC 33G glow plug for Isuzu diesels used in Chevy and GM cars and trucks. They are selling a plug that does not have the proper wattage rating and will fail instantly when installed. They know it and are trying to sell of their old stock anyway.

On the other hand, take the GM 6.2 and 6.5 diesels and AC Delco glow plugs. They were awful, but at least Delco stopped making them and now buys Beru plugs from Germany and sticks them into a Delco box (AC 60G). Very good plugs because they are not made by Delco. Ford got smart and did the same thing long before Delco.

As far as the ignition capacitor goes - it might be. I've got a capacitor tester and am going to check it out later. The new one in there now is from NAPA under the Echlin brand.

 

[woodache]

For one I never read that you have replaced the condenser? Have you? These can be a source of weird problems. ;((

Second you should Be Happy that you dont have the 1010 diesel engine at least not the original 1010 diesel engine. They were a piece of junk. You will find a lot of non running 1010 JD diesels. Even JD once admitted the 1010 D was junk!!


Check your plugs and wires too seems that you may have a high resistance going to your plugs. If you have R-XX plugs replace them with non resistor plugs. I had a lot of problems with my fork lift engine ignition too, replaced the coil with the High voltage one they sell here on YT haven't had a ignition problem since.

 

[JDemaris]

Thanks, but it's not the problem. I don't have the OEM Deere special switch anymore. I was a Deere mechanic back when those 1010/2010 switches failed often (with the built-in resistor). Got rid of mine long ago.

 

[woodache]

For one I never read that you have replaced the condenser? Have you? These can be a source of weird problems. ;((

Second you should Be Happy that you dont have the 1010 diesel engine at least not the original 1010 diesel engine. They were a piece of junk. You will find a lot of non running 1010 JD diesels. Even JD once admitted the 1010 D was junk!!


Check your plugs and wires too seems that you may have a high resistance going to your plugs. If you have R-XX plugs replace them with non resistor plugs. I had a lot of problems with my fork lift engine ignition too, replaced the coil with the High voltage one they sell here on YT haven't had a ignition problem since.

 

[JDemaris]

Condensor is new, but of course that doesn't mean it cannot be bad. What I don't get is why spark found a new path to ground across the rotor plastic. Electricity seeks the path of least resistance, so I don't see how a bad capacitor could cause that tracking unless it's making spark at the wrong time. And . . . I could be wrong.

In regard to the 1010 diesels - I don't agree and there has never been any central Deere authority to say they were bad. I was a Deere dealer mechanic for years - and yeah, we complained about the 1010s and 2010s. So did some official Deere tech-people. But, they were not all that bad and the diesels lasted a long time when taken care of properly - and started properly in cold weather.

I worked on many, and most of the problems with 1010 diesels were due to a lack of understanding -by operators, owners, and mechanics. Add Deere to that list since many Deere tech-trouble shooters were clueless. Keep in mind that the 1010 was the first Deere to use a rotary injection pump from Stanadyne, so there was a learning curve involved. Also, many early diesel parts got discontinued fast and were near impossible to get when some 1010s were only 10 years old.

I still wish my 1010 was a diesel. Besides being better on fuel, it's a much bigger engine with more torque if set up right. The 1010 gas is only the size of a 420 two-cylinder engine. Just has four little pistons instead of two big ones.

 

[PJH]

Quick and easy check for a shorting rotor is to remove the dist cap and hold the coil wire to the spring contact on the top of the rotor. Crank the engine or short the points. Should be no spark to good rotor. Bad rotor shows up more in damp wx it seems, will sometimes show good in dry wx.

As I write this, I know that you already know much more than I about ignition systems, but it might help someone else someday.

Good luck,
Paul

 

[Ole Shovel]

NAPA has two grades on most parts but not all and I doubt any are made in Mexico only assembled or boxed there for shipment to here. Try a dealer that sells BWD Borg Warner, Standard or Niehoff those all come from the same place too and AC Delco is made foreign too. Yes they are junk because of that but there are a couple more to try besides NAPA china stuff. I"ve had brand new rotors, condensers, coils, resistors fail right out of the box being bad. Rotors push on real hard ? End shaft rusty ? CLEAN IT OFF so you don"t break the new rotor and crack it. Seen lots of rotors weren"t made right and wouldn"t go on a clean shaft the whole batch made bad so try another brand. Ignition resistor and condenser are probably bad too. Looks like lots of crud on that rotor is it hitting the contacts in the cap too? If so the shaft and bushings in dist shaft are worn out.

 

[Bob]

Been running it with a spark plug wire off or almost off or a bad wire?

Most of the time a rotor fails like that, it's 'cause the spark's normal path is compromised somehow and it's seeking the easiest path to ground.

 

[BCnT]

i've seen similar problems with engines using the aftermarket "flamethrower" type coils...they're just over voltage enuff to short across those short 4 cyl rotor bugs.
Standard brand ignition parts is all i used to buy till the local indy parts house went belly up.
also i agree 100% with the poster than mentioned resistor wires and plugs playing a part...copper wires and non resistor plugs is what should be on there.
BTW...this aint the first time GM had rotor problems...i made a ton of money replacing rotors on stranded cars when they first came out with HEI...those white rotors would burn a hole straight thru to distributor shaft...always kept 5-6 in the glove compartment of my FORD wrecker.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Did the old Case rotor work for many hours when placed in the JD 1010? If so then you may have just ran into some poor quality new parts. If you did not let the old Case rotor run for may hours in the JD then it did not get a good time trial in order to fail.

To go that large of a distance the spark votage needs to be higher than normal or the rotor is contaminated with carbon that conducts electricity. Oil, dirt, water condensation can cause arcing. A large spark gap will also raise the voltage and cause arcing. Bypassing the resistor can also do the same thing. The condensor did not cause the arcing.

I have not had problems with NAPA or any generic ignition parts. I know someone will post that everything made today is junk but that has not been my experience.

I would check the plug gap, clean the rotor shaft, remove any resistor plugs or wires, don't bypass the coil resitor if it has one, and see what happens.

Please post back with the results so we can all learn.

 

[Bob]

BCnT...

How many fender-mount "duraspark" modules and TFI modules did you carry in the glovebox of your FORD wrecker???

"Twenty-two million Ford vehicles made from 1983 through 1995 have defective ignition modules that may cause the vehicle to stall and die on the highway at any time. Failure at highway speeds can cause the driver to lose control or even result in a stalled vehicle being hit by a truck. Some models had failure rates as high as 90%. According to Ford, two-thirds of the failures were of the "die on the road" type."
Source

 

[Allan in NE]

What Bob said,

Carbon tracking is a secondary effect that is "caused"; it doesn't just "happen" out of the blue. Then, once it has established a route, it cooks thru and ruins the part.

Something downstream on one or more of the cylinders just is not right.

Allan

 

[Allan in NE]

Damn Bob!

Yer right again. You must be a mechanic. LOL!

Cold up there yet?

Allan

 

[JDemaris]

I only ran the old Case rotor for a few hours. Then got the new rotor for NAPA and stuck it in.

I checked all the obvious stuff but may be missing something. All wires are fine and copper. Plug are not resistor and engine is in good shape - i.e. no oil fouled plugs.

 

[Allan in NE]

JD,

Something as simple as paint/dirt on a plug thread or a plug that is "loose" in the thread could cause that.

Just trying to help,

Allan

 

[JDemaris]

Yes, I know that electricity is going to follow the path of least resistance. That's what has me a little baffled. I'm reasonably sure that all is fine with the wires, cap, plugs, etc. Engine is in good shape - no resistor plugs or wires, no oil fouling, etc. But yes, it's possible that for some reason a plug has an unusally high resistance. Not something that can be checked with an ohmeter since a good plug also has very high resistance due to the gap.

That's what got me thinking about the actual time of spark and rotor position when it happens. I noticed that when spark is occurring, the rotor is inbetween poles instead of being lined up with one. Seems that must cause huge resistance. Not something I ever had to think much about before this, and maybe all distributors are designed to work OK that way. Like I said, never really checked any others since I never had an issue like this.

 

[glennster]

when you say the rotor is between poles on the distributor cap, this got me thinkin. is it possible the distributor drive gear is one tooth off? set the crank timing mark on tdc, then check the rotor, it should be firing directly under the post on the rotor. if not, either the distributor drive gear is off a tooth, or possibly the drive gear off the cam is off by one. as it is now, the spark is jumping quite a big gap to get from the rotor to the post on the cap.

 

[Tommy D6-8U]

I would try some dielectric silicone grease on the rotor where it sits on the distributor shaft. It might keep it from trying to go to ground there.

 

[Janicholson]

J,
If the rotor is pointing to a location between the terminals when the spark happens, there is an issue.
The distributor cam (on this distributor) is on the same shaft as the rotor notch/flat that indexes the rotor. If the points are the wrong ones (even if they fit on the backing plate) the rubbing block will be in the wrong place. This can be one cause of that wrong rotor position.
The wrong rotor can also be blamed for the issue fitting is not the same as indexed. a cap that fits is also suspect for displaced terminals.
The rotor will fail if the spark needs to jump 1/2" every time it fires. The rotor tip should be within its width pointing to the terminal, as the points break. If not is is wrong. JimN

 

[showcrop]

My '69 Yale with chrysler flathead six used to carbon track the cap pretty regularly so I put in an electronic ignition and it has been good since.

 

[twopop]

see if the dc case and the jd have the same type points

 

[Mark]

Bob,

you took the words right out my mouth!

 

[BCnT]

well Bob...seeing as i'm also a Ford certified tech with about 25 years in various dealerships and 15 more years on my own,i've changed out quite a few under WARRANTY and recalls...did GM recall those rotors or offer owners new ones...nope
i didnt come here lookin to start sh!t...you drive your junk and i'll drive mine.EOD!

 

[Jerry/MT]

That rotor has a lot of flash around it. Have you checked your system voltage? Sometimes the VR fail to regulate to the proper voltage and the voltage can creep up to high values. This causes the primary current to increase which causes the secondary current to increase and may cause the arcing on the rotor you seem to be experiencing. Do your points show any burning or id your coil hottr than normal?

 

[Bob]

BCnT,

Don't be such a smartass!

#1. I DO drive several Dorf products, and just dealt with a failed TFI module. For additional headaches, I have a Gm 6.5 diesel with Standyne's failed attempt at diesel EFI!

2. If you read the link I posted, you will find out quite a few of the TFI modules escaped the "warrantee" and "recalls".

 

[Bob]

I use cutaway distributor caps and run distributors on my Sun distributor machine to verify where the rotor is when the points open.

At slow speed, the tip of the rotor will be just ahead of the high-tension terminals when spark occurs and at full advance it will be an equal amount past the terminals, if all is well.

Can't say I've had much trouble with points distributors, but have had SEVERAL EI conversions that were mounted wrong on the breaker plate causing spark to occur when the rotor is BETWEEN the hight tension terminals.

 

[olddog]

Regarding indexing of the rotor to the cap,...
didya check the spark advance? You should be able to move the rotor back and forth a few degrees freely. Check under the points plate for springs and weights.

 

[JDemaris]

I got pretty fed up with this thing today and out of frustation, I replaced most everything. Not usually my nature but I'm tryng to get this road finished before it snows again.

So, I put in new points, new condensor, another new rotor, another new cap and even put in four new spark plugs. Note the old plugs looked perfect. Good gap and clean.

Also did a resistance check on all plug wires and coil wire even though they're all copper. All fine.

Also checked system voltage and all is fine.

In regard to questions about the distributor being out a tooth - nope, that's fine. Engine hasn't been apart in years and this problem just started.

So, put everything in. It started right up and I went back to pushing dirt. Ran fine for half an hour, then started breaking up and died again. I pulled the coil from the cap and held it about 1/4" from ground and cranked the engine. Nice big blue spark. Stuck the wire back in the cap and then checked spark coming out of the cap from one of the four poles - and nothing.

So, pulled the cap back off and found the brand new rotor with a new carbon track on it, just like the other one.

I gave up on it for today and pulled out my old Allis Chalmers crawler to finish up. I got too disgusted to mess with it anymore. Now . . . after all the years I've defended 1010s, I'm starting to hate the thing (it probably feels the same about me).

At this point the only thing that comes to mind is the issue of the rotor being inbetween poles when ignition takes place. I assume that will vary by changing point gap. Maybe as Bob mentioned, I'm going to have to find a way to determine time of spark as the rotor is pointing at a pole, and maybe that will require a non-standard points setting. Supposed to be .022" Like I said before - I never had to give that aspect much thought until now.

I must admit, I'm a bit stumped at the moment.

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[JK-NY]

Could be worn distributor drive gear or problem with centrifugal advance weights throwing off timing to cause spark when rotor is not properly aligned to contact in cap ? Might be worth checking that dist. weights throw out and retract freely and maybe pull dist. if needed. Hope you get your work done. We're sure getting a nice stretch of weather for this time of year.

 

[JDemaris]

I'm wondering if there is any chance I have a cap that fits properly but has the poles in the wrong place?

I know the centrifugal advance is working fine. All is free and lubricated. I also had a timing light on the engine and watched the timing advance as the RPMs increased.

So, I don't know what the heck is going on, and now it's raining and the crawler is sitting outside in a mud-bank.

When the weather clears, I'm going to mark the distributor housing at time of spark. Hopefully I can set the points-gap to put that rotor in the correct place - instead of using factory settings. Factory setting is .022" and spark is happening when that rotor is right in the middle of two poles. If points are set narrower or wider, that rotor position will change. But, this is still weird. I can't figure what could of changed to create this problem. Seems what would be real handy is an adustable rotor - or adjustable cap to get things lined up. You can only mess with point-gap just so much before the dwell-angle gets all screwed up and spark gets weak. I might even do some mods on that cap so I can move its position. That would require moving the lock clips though.

I'm wondering if there's any chance these caps are being made wrong? Or, of somehow I've been getting the wrong caps? I don't thing there's any alternative though.

Crawler is a 1960 John Deere 1010. Distributor is a Delco # 1112577. Cap I've been using is NAPA Echlin RR145. I'm going to go out later and see what the old cap looks like on my 1952 Case DC. It uses the same rotor and probably has the same cap.

Year's ago this crawler was in a fire and the original distribor melted. It was a Delco 1108323. I had to buy another used distribor and that's what I have now. But all the parts I've been buying are listed for the new number I'm using.

 

[Jerry/MT]

When you figure this one out, please post what you found. The carbon tracks are almost identical!
You said you replaced the original distributor with a different one. Did you recurve the advance? How far different is the advance curve from the original advance?