IH 45 Baler Knotters?

[NewOldFarmer]

OK, I know from reading that the 45s were notorious for the knotters not being the greatest so with that said... I have a small farm and don't do a lot of baling... and my big tractor is only 52hp, and my farm is pretty much on a side hill... so I don't want a huge baler, nor the price that comes with a new one... AND I do love the challenge of making old things work again.... so I picked up this Mccormick B 45 for $200 (minus the male end of PTO shaft) the guy that had it probably kept it to use with other equipment...... And after spendong an entire day in the sun yesterday rebuilding the PTO shaft with new U-joints.... I greased everything (I steam cleaned it the night before) and then took it to the field to try on some hay I had laying. Everything seems to work fine, Except the knotters of course... I am pretty sure I threaded the needles correctly, but am waiting on the owners manual I ordered to confirm... The inboard Needle (passenger side) was delivering the twine fine, but the knotter did not tie the knot. in addition, I had one strand of twine around a bel (as ot should be, then two lengths of twine laying on top the bale... so they are hung up somehpw. The outboard (drivers side) did not have twine at all. When I looked at the threading it seemed that the twine may have been wrapped around the needle... so that could have been part of the problem. On the outboard side as well, there is a spring guide coming offf the twine box and the spring was broken. I am going to replace that... but all other Guides were in place and seemed to be functioning. QUESTION: Does anyone know why the twine would be hanging up on the knotter? Once I get the manual I should have the adjustment procedures in there (I assume) ... but I want to get a head start on what to be looking for if I can. Any info is greatly appreciated.

 

[DanielW]

This file might help you - it's the dealer setup manual for the 45. First thing to ensure is that the twine knives are uber, uber sharp. The McCormick style of knotters used on the IH two-digit balers rely on the bale movement to pull the twine across the knife to cut and strip it from the knotters. Knife sharpness is absolutely critical for them to work properly. Dull knives will cause the uncut twine to pull the knot apart and not strip off the bill hook correctly (or pull out of the hook without being cut). They also function best at proper PTO speed and with a decent charge of hay being fed into them: Don't make the mistake of thinking you're doing it any favours by running at really low RPM. That's especially true of the 45, because one of the problems was the too-small flywheel not having enough momentum. The spring you mentioned sounds like it was on the twine guide from the twine box? It needs to be putting sufficient tension on the twine to hold it back and allow it to be guided by the needles properly. Doesn't need to be much tension, just enough to cause a smidge of resistance.

It's also critical on the older IH knotters to make sure the dogs are working (no broken springs) and that the toothed side plate in the chamber isn't rusted out or missing. It's even more critical than usual on those IH balers to make sure these components are good so the bale can't back up slightly once the plunger's stroked, because backing up slightly will cause the twine to go slack and mess with the twine being pulled cleanly across the knives and off the hooks.

 

[DanielW]

Hmm, I think I uploaded the wrong file in my last post, so I deleted it. This is the one you want:

 

[DanielW]

Here's the operator manual for the #46 baler, which has a few sections (one in the middle and one in the 'care' section at the end) on the knotters. Might have a little more info than the previous file. I don't know all the changes between the 45 and 46 - at one point they made the twine disc driveshaft two pieces so you could set the timing better (they should have done this right from the get-go). But that might have been on the 47.

 

[DanielW]

I should also add: The best thing for knotter diagnosis is to trip the knotters and have someone roll it over slowly by hand as you watch the knotters tie. Use a couple of light bungee cord on the twine pulling from the end of the chute to simulate a bale pulling the twine (make sure it's pulling in-line). If you don't have a second person, set your cell phone tucked into the knotters and recording video while you roll it over yourself. I have a magnetic, universal tripod for my phone that I use for things like this, and now that I'm used to having it I wouldn't be without it. It's great because you can re-watch the video again and again to notice different things, and slow it down to pinpoint certain problems.

 

[JOCCO]

New I think Daniel has given you good advice. If it has set for a long time make sure it does not have rust or old string in it. It being the knotter twine disk. Same for bill hook.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

The spring loaded twine arm is essential to the tying operation...it holds the twine taut as the needle recedes and the twine disc rotates into position to catch the twine. That side will not tie with that spring broken.

The insides of the needle tubes must be rust free in order for the twine arms to keep the twine taut at the knotter as the machine gets into position to form the next bale.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Also have to remember that baler was built in the days of 7' cutterbars.... 9' of windrow is a lot to put through it, but it can be done.

Your first order of business, regardless of how wide your windrow is, is make sure the slip clutch on the flywheel is functional. Only take a couple minutes. Loosen the bolts on the pressure plate and make sure the disk is not stuck to the flywheel. Place a piece of firewood between the plunger knives to stall the plunger. Power up the PTO with the tractor until all the rust comes out of the clutch. Now tighten the pressure plate bolts just a little bit, just for a little friction, and run the PTO for another 10-15 seconds, to polish the surfaces. Now tighten down the pressure plate bolts for good and all and remove the firewood.

Is possible this knotter is going to test your threshold of sanity.... is best to not add more stress trying to replace that very difficult to get to shear bolt behind the flywheel, laying on prickly stubble with dirt falling onto your sweaty face.... after you have seen a few yards of twine wound around the left billhook.

Also since the tongue does not swing, you may have to pull in the right rear wheel if the windrow does not line up with the pickup. Your only alternative is to run the windrow over with the tractor. Under no circumstances should you shift the hitch and run the PTO at an angle. In a turn, It may be too short and come apart , or too long and jam together, cause serious damage to baler or tractor.

It will tie more consistently at something less than 540 rpm, because of friction in the twine/ needle tube/ twine arm arrangement, but like Daniel says, it has no flywheel to speak of.... so slower speeds mean a greater chance of slugging... which is why it is so important for the slip clutch to work. Second cutting you could probably run it as slow as you want, unless you rake a couple windrows together.

 

[DanielW]

The spring loaded twine arm is essential to the tying operation...it holds the twine taut as the needle recedes and the twine disc rotates into position to catch the twine. That side will not tie with that spring broken.

The insides of the needle tubes must be rust free in order for the twine arms to keep the twine taut at the knotter as the machine gets into position to form the next bale.

I think you're thinking of the spring-loaded tucker fingers on more conventional knotters. The two-digit IH knotters didn't have the spring-loaded tucker fingers like other balers did - they used a fixed tucker finger that didn't move/pivot. The hay pulling the twine from further in the chamber holds it against the bill-hook - one of the reasons the hay dogs and and toothed plate are even more important on those old IH balers than other balers. The broken spring the OP mentions sounds like it's on the twine tension guide out of the twine box.

To the OP: Watch this video and you'll understand a little better: Imagine what would happen if those dogs allowed the bale to back out a bit during the stripping process. And see how it relies solely on the continuing charge of hay to strip the knot. A little momentum helps strip the knot on those IH knotters too - which is why you don't want to run it at too low RPM.

 

[DanielW]

Further to above: You'll also note in that video (there are other videos that show it better) how there are two grooves right next to each other on the twine disc: They don't feed both twines into the same groove like all olther balers do. The 'up-stream' groove (the one that continuously holds the twine during the rest of the baling) is deeper, to allow that twine to bypass the knife as it travels by. The second twine gets placed in the shallower groove, and it gets cut as it bypasses the knife. Timing of the disc is thus uber-critical - if it gets into the wrong groove it'll cause havoc (either both sides will be cut and the twine will not be held at all in the disc for the next bale, or both sides won't be cut, causing it to hang up). On the earliest 45's, I don't think there was any ability to adjust the timing by the gear on the disc: It was one-piece, not the tapered connection that everyone else used (and which IH changed to on the 46/47). It was critical to have some twine guide tension and the needle straight, so it pulled the twine directly in-line with the correct groove in the discs.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I think you're thinking of the spring-loaded tucker fingers on more conventional knotters. The two-digit IH knotters didn't have the spring-loaded tucker fingers like other balers did - they used a fixed tucker finger that didn't move/pivot. The hay pulling the twine from further in the chamber holds it against the bill-hook - one of the reasons the hay dogs and and toothed plate are even more important on those old IH balers than other balers. The broken spring the OP mentions sounds like it's on the twine tension guide out of the twine box.

To the OP: Watch this video and you'll understand a little better: Imagine what would happen if those dogs allowed the bale to back out a bit during the stripping process. And see how it relies solely on the continuing charge of hay to strip the knot. A little momentum helps strip the knot on those IH knotters too - which is why you don't want to run it at too low RPM.

The twine tension on a 45 is controlled by a pair (per side) of spring plates to create enough drag on the twine to hold the spring- loaded twine arm (slack arm) against the bottom of the twine can. The twine arm pulls the twine backwards through the needle a small amount to keep the twine taut as the needles recede, so the twine disk can pick up the twine to start a new bale. This is long after the previous knot had been tied and waiting to be pushed off the bill hook.

If either the coil spring on the plates or the torsion spring on the arm is broken, there will be no twine tension and a mistie will result.

 

[DanielW]

The twine tension on a 45 is controlled by a pair (per side) of spring plates to create enough drag on the twine to hold the spring- loaded twine arm (slack arm) against the bottom of the twine can. The twine arm pulls the twine backwards through the needle a small amount to keep the twine taut as the needles recede, so the twine disk can pick up the twine to start a new bale. This is long after the previous knot had been tied and waiting to be pushed off the bill hook.

If either the coil spring on the plates or the torsion spring on the arm is broken, there will be no twine tension and a mistie will result.

Ah, my apologies. I didn't realize what you were talking about. Been too long since I worked around an IH baler. Those are the spring eyes that the twine is routed through? This Allis baler I still have has pretty much the same things - spring eyes the twine routes through to keep tension on the twine as the needles back out. I'd forgot the 45 had something similar.

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Ah, my apologies. I didn't realize what you were talking about. Been too long since I worked around an IH baler. Those are the spring eyes that the twine is routed through? This Allis baler I still have has pretty much the same things - spring eyes the twine routes through to keep tension on the twine as the needles back out. I'd forgot the 45 had something similar.

No apologies necessary as far as I'm concerned. That's why we're all here, to help this guy out via our various experiences. This twine-in-the-tube arrangement probably works ok when it was new, I think rust was it's biggest enemy, particularly if stored outdoors. Then there is that faction who destroy everything they touch, it was in these circumstances that this baler never stood a chance.

 

[NewOldFarmer]

Thanks for all the GREAT INFO! I am going to work on the knotters this weekend and hopefully find a spring to replace the one that is broken. Yes, coming out of the twine box there are a set of pressure plates, which appear to be working fine. Bout 2" below that ther is a spring mounted rod with an eye at the end, about 10' long. The spring maintains the rod sticking straight out, whereas the broken one just hangs alongside the box. From that eye, I fed it through the tube in the eyes using a long pice id wire (I actually cut up an old tomato cage to get a good strong piece of wire long enough to go all the way through. Then I threaded it through the eye of the needle. there were actually two eyes on each needle, one directly above the other. I only threaded the twine through the upper eye. Should it be threaded through both? Once I fix the outer spring and sharpen the blades, I will make sure the twine is routed as before (without being wrapped around the needle),and then tie it off to the bottom of the baler. with any luck it will work much better. I lubed all the lube points that I saw and I pressure washed it the night before. I thought about spraying it down with WD 40 but given the amount of dust and garbage that get in there I figured it would just add to the stuff sticking to the knotters. For the most part when I was baling I had my tongue attached to the draw bar and after adjusting the pickup and the drawbar was able to keep it nice and even on the ground, and with my right rear tire just on the inside of the windrow I was picking up everything except in a couple turns... I will keep you posted as to how it goes.

 

[Haykid]

Sorry I’m late to the party I’ve been off here for a couple months and came back to someone else crazy enough to buy a 45 baler lol. I too am struggling with mine right at the moment. Not having the hanging up problem you are but I’ve had various problems since I bought it. Like these other guys have said the twine knives have to be as sharp as you can get them and the needles and needle guides have to be free of rust. What I did when I got mine was took the needles off and ran a wire wheel on a drill down through them and got all the rust out (which was a very significant amount) and then thinned some paint down to almost water consistency and coated the inside of the needles to prevent that rust from coming back. A few other things I have noticed is you have to have the knife set properly with washers so that it cuts at the correct time. I also have noticed that it depends what twine you are using on how you set the twine disc spacing. That’s where my problems are coming from at the moment I can’t figure out if my twine finger is wore or if my discs are but I’m dropping the twine before it gets the knot tied. So there is some shims in there you may have to play with if your trying to use a thinner or thicker twine than what it was originally set up for. I actually have been collecting all the manuals I can get for this machine so if you would like I can send you the service manual pages on adjusting the knotter to spec because if I remember right the owners manual only had the basic bill hook tension and twine tension settings and not much else on it. I’m glad there’s finally someone else on here who is taking the chance on a 45. I’m kind of like you I only have a few acres to hay and I’m only 20 as well so the money is kinda tight and I found this cheap so I took a chance and have learned a lot and looking to learn more so I’ll help when I can and I’m sure I’ll learn from you as well.
Thanks,
Haykid

 

[NewOldFarmer]

Ok, quick Hail Mary here… does anyone know/have one of the Twine box retention springs (that hold the small rod)? I am having a bear of a time finding one and only one shop has offered to make one for what I think is a CRAZY price…

 

[Fritz Maurer]

I have a couple 50Ts , let me check and see if it is the same thing. Stand by.

 

[DanielW]

I'm afraid I can't help on the twine arm springs - unless you happen to be near Central Ontario, in which case I keep getting ads on Facebook Marketplace for a 45 near me for $200 that would be a good spare/parts unit.

But I came across this link in my searching the other day: A chap in New Brunswick gave a pretty thorough outline of adjusting the knotters and discs on the IH two-digit balers. Thought it might be of help/interest here:

46 Baler Knotter and Knife Adjustments - jimstewart360.ca

Knotter problems on a 46 Square Baler | McCormick International Harvester 46 BalerReplacing and adjusting knives | Adjusting tension spring

jimstewart360.ca

 

[Fritz Maurer]

Got one. It is slightly heavier gauge than yours, so the nut on the twine pincher is going to have to be a little tighter on this side, to hold the slack arm down against the twine box.

Not quite the way we though it would turn out, is it...

 

[NewOldFarmer]

That’s great news! Where are you located?