In frame overhaul kits

Britcheflee

Well-known Member
I am thinking of purchasing one of the 'in frame' overhaul kits to replace sleeves rings etc on my 8N which smokes - when it says 'in frame' does this mean I do not have to remove the engine? Anyone have any advice about this? I assume I need to remove the old sleeves first to confirm the thickness?
Is it something someone which someone with moderate skills can do?
I have tools, torque wrench etc and have previously taken the head off to replace the head gasket.

Thank you,


Lee
 
the thing to look at is your oil pressure and let it be your guide.if your oil pressure stays good even while hot,nothing wrong with changing rings in my opinion.but if you dont have good oil pressure,new rings wont fix that of course.I myself, if i were going to do this,would just replace rings and maybe rod bearings.I wouldnt even buy a kit.not worth the trouble to me if I cant totaly rebuild one to replace pistons and sleeves with new.Ive done it and would do it again,but it is just a patch job.I did this on a 2n that i use at the house just for working garden and moving stuff around, and its been good for probably 5 years now.the ones I use at farm that get used hard Ive overhauled completly.
 
(quoted from post at 16:36:03 02/14/11) I am thinking of purchasing one of the 'in frame' overhaul kits to replace sleeves rings etc on my 8N which smokes - when it says 'in frame' does this mean I do not have to remove the engine? Anyone have any advice about this? I assume I need to remove the old sleeves first to confirm the thickness?
Is it something someone which someone with moderate skills can do?
I have tools, torque wrench etc and have previously taken the head off to replace the head gasket.

Thank you,


Lee

Set of four new sleeves with pistons and rings is $150 - is that what you are looking at? To do any sort of an in-frame you must remove the head and drop the pan to get the pistons out. I would never do all that work and simply throw in a set of rings to save $100. And at that point I'd call it a no brainer to toss in a $25 set of new rod bearings as well. Add in gaskets and you are probbably lookig at $250 or so.

It's not brain surgery but it requires a modest amount of mechanical skill and helps if you have the proper tools.

TOH
 
I did an in frame rebuild once about 25 years ago. You need to block up the transmission and remove the front axle to get the pan off. It is the lowest cost "rebuild" but is only worth it if your crank and valves are in decent shape. If you have good oil pressure, 20+ hot, and the valves can get by with only being hand lapped you may end up with 10-15+ more years of service. You will not know until you pull the head and pan to look at the valves and crank. I was dirt poor and my tractor smoked to bad to use and I really needed that tractor. In addition to rings I rebuilt the oil pump and installed rod bearing. It only had 10# oil pressure hot but I worked it hard for another 20 years. With the manual and time you can do it.
 
You do a half azz overhaul,you get the same results. I have rebuilt so many engines I have lost count, well over 250 I'm sure, but every time I've tried to cut corners on one it's bit me. The main seals leak, no oil pressure,etc.It's your tractor and your money, but you couldn't pay me enough to do an in frame.
 


Thanks,

I am pretty sure the problem is caused by damaged sleeves - the tractor was sitting behind the barn for probably 20 years where my father in law had put it after the head gasket blew - I removed head and one of the pistons was seized in sleeve - managed to break that loose but there was obvious damage caused by water/coolant on the inside of the two rear sleeves (closest to steering wheel) - I basically just cleaned it out with a scrubbie and put it all back together as i was not even sure it would go...of course it did!!! So I think I am getting oil blow by in these two cylinders as the plugs always oil up - the two front ones are just fine - my thinking would be to replace all 4 sleeves and put in new rings and that should solve the smoking and oiling up? I have good oil pressure at regular running rpm and no knocking or other strange problems - just the oiling up and smoking which causes it to run badly and eventually stall out under load.

Thank you,


Lee
 
Britchelee...don't be dissuaded by arm-chair nay-sayers who are only going to be happy if you spend a lot of your money when all you want is a good, working, non-smoking tractor.

I've done exactly what I suspect you have in mind. I did it about 7 years ago, accomplished it in one weekend using hand-tools, no helper (other than a cousin to pass me a wrench and/or another beer occasionally) and I've worked my N-Ford HARD, year-round ever since mowing/shredding 24 acres twice a month and grading 2 miles of dirt roads, plus other chores weekly. It was a good, inexpensive, simple fix. Here's how I did it.

Firstly, this method is only good for a tractor that has good working valves, and no serious issues other than wear to the pistons/rings/sleeves. (Mine was knocking so hard it would scare a deaf mule because the front sleeve was fractured and down in pieces in the sump, with no. 1 cyl ZERO compression. That no 1 piston was slapping around so hard you could feel it in the seat. This was a tractor that had been "gifted" to me. When I cranked it over, the lift-arms would rise, so that told me it had working hydrualics, or I'd have reconsidered spending any time/effort on it.)

It is not necessary to disassemble all that steering. First, jack up the front end and rest the forward flange of the transmission on good, sturdy, wood blocks. (Don't use cinder blocks or brick which will crumble to dust and drop the tractor on you.... because you are going to be UNDER that thing.) The front wheels are now off the ground.
Next, unbolt the foot-pegs/radius-arm sockets, and unbolt the front-axle bracket at the front of the block. Now, PULL the front axle forward, away from the tractor and watch the front wheels turn "pigeon-toed" towards each other. Leave the steering alone now.... that's all you must to do that, and when finished, simply reverse the procedure.

Now...drain the engine oil and radiator and fuel tank. LIft the hood off, and set it aside. Disconnect the spark plug leads and tie them out of the way, remove the head and set it aside. Leave the carb. exhaust and manifold alone.
Drop the sump/oil pan.

CAUTION: Use a permanent marker or other method to mark each main cap, and connrod-cap ...and connrod cap-to-connrod :!: ...as to location and orientation. You do NOT want to get them mixed up. You want to make CERTAIN they go back EXACTLY into the same position/orientation you removed them.

Unbolt the rod caps and set them aside. Using the wooden handle of a hammer, push/tap the connecting rods/pistons up and out of the cylinders and set them aside. (Remember the CAUTION above. Keep each of them with their own conn-rod caps and properly oriented.)

Remove the sleeves. (I did what everyone said not to do...I split them with a screwdriver and drove them out. This can be hazardous if you crack your block, but I had no difficulty with it. You can do as you wish, using the proper tool available from friends here, or use a block of wood and drive/hammer it out from below...or do what I did....being careful to put the stresses from the screwdriver-blade upon the disposable sleeves....not upon your engine block.) Toss them into the trash after you confirm their wall-thickness with a caliper or micrometer.

Press the piston wrist-pins out and remove the pistons from the conn rods. Notice the bushings in the upper/small-end of the conn rods. Notice the oil squirt-hole in the bushing which is blocked with carbon. Use a wire and clean that hole out. (Unless you are planning on replacing that bushing...lubricate the bushing with Lubriplate or your favorite light-grease or motor oil by soaking. If you plan to replace that bushing...be prepared to ask a machinist for help to "size" it to the wrist-pins. I re-used mine after checking the wrist-pin-to-bushing fit by my calibrated eyeball and decided it wasn't a problem without lubrication...and it'll be even better now that I've cleaned the carbon out of the squirt-hole.)

Install the new pistons w/their new piston rings onto the conn rod. (Follow the directions included in the kit, facing the pistons in the correct direction and the ring-ends spaced about 30-degrees around the piston from each other. It's a good idea to first confirm the rings will fit within their new sleeves with about .005" end-clearance before fitting them to the pistons. The kit probably doesn't need any fitting...but check it anyway. Use a file to size the rings for proper end-clearance. I used 3-ring pistons because that's what came out.

Check the backside of your conn-rod bearings for the part-number/size. You will find the info imprinted on the backside of the bearings. (Order/Use the same size as came out unless you intend to increase your costs/complexity of this job by using a machinist to work on your crank. Consider this...if the bearings that came out were correct at the last rebuild...then the same size should fit on THIS one unless the engine was damaged by running it dry of oil. Since this isn't your problem...then use the same size as you take out when you go back in and the crank should need no machine-work either.) :wink:

Same logic with the main bearings. Remove the center main caps and look at the backs of the main bearings to determine what size existed....and replace them with the same size as you find. (Again, if you replace say, .020 mains, which were found to be correct the LAST time it was rebuilt, with new .020 main bearings...then you'll be improving the crank-to-cap fitment because you'll be replacing WORN bearings with NEW bearings of the same size. But if you have that crank machined...then all bets are off...you'll have to use new bearings of the size specified by your machinist. I didn't want all that extra expense...I just wanted a good working tractor that didn't knock or smoke, so I went back with the same sizes as I removed with no regrets.) Use the old lower bearings to press/dislodge the old upper bearings, and you can continue to slip them out. Now slide/slip the new upper bearings into postion.

As for the front and rear main bearings... remove the main caps...and remove the lower bearing shell-halves. Now use the old shell halves to the push the old upper shell halves out of position....and then slip the new upper shell halves in-place. Replace the lower shell halves and re-install the main caps. (I found it easier to first LOOSEN the front/rear main caps slightly and then PULL HARD DOWN on the crank to gain a little working-looseness ...using the loose lower caps to prevent excessive movement of the crank...then finished removing the main caps...so I could replace the main bearings using the above method. It worked perfectly. I also replaced the LOWER front/rear oil seals only...leaving the old upper-seals in place. I had no problems whatsoever...but be careful not to get any new oil seal material jammed between the front/rear main bearing caps and their bedding in the block. You do not want to accidentally prevent the main caps from seating fully.)

Torque the main caps. (You DID remember to keep them located/oriented EXACTLY as you removed them, right???)

Clean the upper block/head mating surfaces with gasket-scraper and/or Scotch-brite pads.

Use the proper tool....or use a wooden block to press the new sleeves down into place. Make certain they fully seat. Do not try to glue them or use any epoxy, etc. to retain them. They will be retained by design which incorporates a tight-fit with the head.

Now, using abundant amounts of motor oil for assembly, install the pistons which have already been reinstalled with lubricated wrist-pins onto the conn rods. Be careful not to scratch your crank journals with the conn rod bolt threads. (You DID pay attention to orientation again?) And now reinstall your lower conn rod caps (Location? Orientation?) using more oil, and torque them.

Motor the engine with the starter to make certain all is well. Just a few turns will do to ascertain nothing is locked up because you failed the location/orientation test. (wink) This is a good time to observe the valve movements.

Reinstall the head using a fiber (my favorite) head gasket. Torque the head per the IT-FO4 manual. Do NOT overtorque the studs/bolts, especially be carefull of those front ones that have very little threads because of their penetration into the water jacket. It doesn't hurt to use Permatex No. 2 on those particular bolts where they penetrate the water jacket. Reinstall the plugs and wires.

Check the oil pickup tube for tightness. Make any repair as necessary (brazing is good.)
Install the oil pan/sump, and add the proper amount of oil, and a new filter.
Reinstall the fuel tank, hood, etc., and reconnect the fuel lines. Add a few gallons and check for leaks.
Refill the radiator/block with coolant. (50/50 antifreeze mixture is good.)

Lubricate the oil-pump pressure-relief valve with plenty of oil to assist in oil pump prime. If you feel talented, prime the oil system with a grease-gun full of engine oil at the oil pressure pick-off fitting.

REconnect the front axle and steering. Let the tractor down off the blocks.

Start 'er up!

Grin!

After she warms up, check the coolant level....not too much...only about an inch above the tubes.

Put her to work!

This is how I did it, and it's a good, hard-working machine that will probably outlive me a long time.

Hope this helps.
 
(quoted from post at 13:36:03 02/14/11) I am thinking of purchasing one of the 'in frame' overhaul kits to replace sleeves rings etc on my 8N which smokes

It is a good thing to do mate. I also did that one. :D
 

Thank you very much! I am printing this out and it is exactly what I want to do - extremely helpful. We are getting another round of rain and snow here in N California but once the weather warms up I will do this and let you know how I get on.


Lee
 
(quoted from post at 11:04:35 02/15/11)
Thank you very much! I am printing this out and it is exactly what I want to do - extremely helpful. We are getting another round of rain and snow here in N California but once the weather warms up I will do this and let you know how I get on.


Lee

Have you tried some of the non-convential treatments?

50/50 auto tranny fluid, and acetone, allowed to soak in the cylinders for a day or three?

Seafoam, in the oil and gas?
 

Yes, I have been trying all the 'alternative' methods for the past 2 years - seafoam, atf, some goop which is supposed to stop smoking (might be my imagination but this did seem to improve it a bit) I have those extensions on the two rear spark plugs to help stop them oiling up but eventually it just starts to misfire and die under load. I am sure the problem is caused by the water etching away the inside of the sleeve (the gasket leak was between the two cylinders and water corroded down the inside of the sleeve at this point) - so even if the rings were loose I think the oil is getting past where the sleeve is corroded away.



Lee
 
Yesterday's Tractor Forums

We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.

Back
Top