International b275

[TractorTroy]

I have a international b275 year built between 1960 and 1961 with a frontend loader and non working power steering. The power steerng operates off the same engine driven hydraulic pump that operates the three point hitch. The original power steering cylinder is no longer serviceable so I mounted a power steering cylinder that I was told was off a industrial John Deere 2010 or 1010 the cylinder has two ports to connect the hydraulic lines. So here's the problem, the cylinder moves only one way and not the other, and the cylinder extends as soon as you start the tractor. While the tractor is running I'm unable to turn the wheels the opposite direction until you shut down the tractor. When the tractor's not running you can steer it but it's very difficult. I should also mention the hydraulic lines get extremely hot in a matter of seconds. So hot that you would burn yourself if you touched them. Any ideas on what the problem might be? Is it possible that this is a single acting cylinder and not a double acting cylinder?

Thank you .

 

[JDemaris]

I'd like to see some photos. As far as I know, the
B275 was NEVER made with power steering. That did
not come out until the next model, i.e. the B-414.
I have an aftermarket power steering in my B275.

 

[Keith Molden]

Kinda sounds to me, and those with more smarts than me will chime in, I hope, that you have some hoses crossed. Go back to square 1 and follow all the hoses from start to finish (both pressure and return lines) and see what you come up with. Just my thoughts, Keith

 

[TractorTroy]

(quoted from post at 07:38:40 01/18/15) I'd like to see some photos. As far as I know, the
B275 was NEVER made with power steering. That did
not come out until the next model, i.e. the B-414.
I have an aftermarket power steering in my B275.

Apparently it had a twin draulics frontend loader installed (not a trip bucket) sometime in its life. In fact it appears it was painted the same ih red as the tractor and a barely readable IH logo on the loader as well as the twin draulics metal Id badge. Anyway the cylinder I installed is much shorter than the original. I just made a new bracket and moved it accordingly so I could get the same amount of turning radius as the original. I just can't figure out why it only turns one way. When you reverse the power steering hoses it will automatically turn the opposite way . Like I posted earlier the cylinder activates as soon as you start the tractor. It's acting like a one way cylinder. Here are some pics.

 

[TractorTroy]

Here are the pics. I'm not good at up loading pics. Sorry about that. I'll giver her another try.

 

[TractorTroy]

this is frustrating!

 

[Bob]

Was the "cylinder" you replaced a self-contained power steering setup with the valve built in?

Is the replacement set up the the same way?

If that is the case, and the setup had worked before, there must be an internal issue with the valve.

 

[TractorTroy]

The mounting of the cylinder is set up the same way as the original. The original cylinder had two hoses that connected to the two ports on the cylinder I would assume is the valve. The cylinder I put on has two ports for the two hoses just like the original wouldn't that be the valve? I Apologize for my ignorance on these issues but I'm not a hydraulic expert.

 

[Adirondack case guy]

I have to agree with Bob. You took off a cylinder that was power assist with a mechanically activated control valve built in to it, and then stuck a cylinder from a hydrostatic steering system, that has no control valve in it. When you start the tractor your pressure line from pump steers it one way until the cyl bottoms out, and then the pressurized oil has to go over relief, and builds heat. When you reverse the hoses the cylinder just does the same thing in the other direction. Your old cylinder's control valve routes pressurized oil internally, to either side of the cylinder piston, and when no steering is required, the valve centers and routes the oil back to the resivoir without deadheading the pump.
YOU NEED TO fix your old cylinder, or find another one like it. The replacement you have, will NOT work!
Loren, the Acg.

 

[Bob]

A photo of the original cylinder and the one you replaced it with would be a great help!

 

[Adirondack case guy]

Just noticed that you posted some pics down the thread. The JD cylinder does appear to be a power assist cylinder, in some respects. At the end of the cylinder where the tapered bolt comes out of the cylinder--- does it have a ball and socket that moves about a 1/4" forward and back in the cylinder??? If that bolt does not move in the cylinder the valve could be stuck, and need freeing. Case used a similar setup that hooked to the mechanical steering system and actually applied hyd power to mechanical drag link also. In those systems there is a small pin between the ball/socket and the valve that would break and wedge, and could cause a problem as you described if you were to start switching hoses etc, rather than replacing the pin or freeing a stuck control valve. The contained control valve in my pic is very noticable though. Not so much in your pic.
Loren, the Acg.

 

[TractorTroy]

Yes it does have a ball and socket that moves a small amount.

 

[TractorTroy]

Maybe the ball and socket on the end of the jd cylinder's only purpose is an attaching point that connects to the drag link? Like I said I have very limited knowledge in hydraulics.

 

[JDemaris]

First of all, you really need to figure out
what you have for a steering box. I'll say
again - IH never sold any B-275 with power-
steering. It became an option later with the B-
414.

The B-414 used two very different power-
steering systems depending on when it was made.

Early B-414 had a single power-steering
"assist" cylinder. Kind of what I added to my
B-275.

Look at the diagrams I posted and see if you
can figure out what parts got swapped into your
B-275.

 

[TractorTroy]

Fig. 18 is the original cylinder that I had on mine. I believe it's called an R92 cylinder. It has a flow divider (see pic) this is mounted on the drivers side next to the seat. I have the flow divider off as I was checking to make sure no valves were stuck causing any restrictions. The hydraulic pump has two ports. The front loader has a very faded out IH logo on it. I'am assuming the loader was added as was the power steering after it arrived to the states.

 

[TractorTroy]

here is the pic of the flow divider removed.

 

[Adirondack case guy]

John, Glad you chimed in with your vast info. especially the breakdown on the JD assist cylinder. Much diff. than what Case used. I am in the process of switching a 440 Case from power assist to hydrostatic system off a Case 660 combine. Got the tilt/telescope steering column, with orbitroller, shuttle valve and steering cylinder brackets fabed up. Still need to do the plumbing and install the parisite valve from the 30 gpm pump that is mounted where the mechanical steering gear was in the nose casting. It is all tucked behind the grill, rather than out in front of the nose.
Nice looking job you did on your B275.
Loren
PS it is 33F here and light rain. Got to 42F about 1:00 and then dropped. Don't you wish you were still 2 ridges over from me?? HeHe.

 

[TractorTroy]

This is the cylinder I installeed on the b275. Any info as to whether or no this has a control valve built into it? I Was told it was off a jd 2010 or 1010 industrial.

 

[Leroy]

Older JD combines use that cylinder with the ball and socket, also Ford 4100 series tractors and they are a Bi!!! to get operating corectly. That ball is the control to the system and what activates the power steering. The Ford after we bought it started acting up and as soon as you started the engine it slamed the steerin wheel and front wheels to one side (forget the side) and you could not turn them back till you shut of the engine. Took it off and took it to dealer several times to get fixed and always came back same way. Dad finally got mad when was told there was nothing wrong with it and it was him that was the problem. Dad got the owner of the Ford dealership that it was bought used from out to look at it. Well just as soon as he started the tractor he just about lost his hand, he got out tools ant took it off himself and when he brought it back it worked as should the rest of the time we owned it. Just took the boss just about loosing a hand to get them to do the work correctly. And without that valve in cylinder you cannot make a system work as the movement of the arm that attaches to that ball tells the cylinder what to do. Not like a hydrostatic steering system that has a control valve at the steering wheel and only hoses to connect the control valve to the cylinder like the one you got to replace it. I have had both types of systems on JD combines and then the built in control valve on 2 Fords And we installed a complete hydrostatic system from a Ford combine on a John Deere AR, after that could steere it with 1 finger but before took 2 strong arms and still could hardly steere it.

 

[Adirondack case guy]

That cylinder looks to be off a hydrostatic steering system. I'm not a JD guru so could be wrong. The ball in the socket should move back and forth against springs to activate the valve if there is one in there.

 

[TractorTroy]

Okay guys, I took out a broken spring out of the control valve end of the jd cylinder. Do y'all think that could be the culprit? It's not a very big spring about 3/4 inch long and maybe 1/2 inch diameter?

 

[Adirondack case guy]

If there was only one spring against a cup that contacts the ball, and not another one on the other side so the ball can travel, and actuate a rod controlling a valve in the cyl., you don't have the correct cylinder.
Loren, the Acg

 

[TractorTroy]

Yes sir, it sounds like I'm gonna have to search for a cylinder that has the control valve incorporated in the cylinder or install a whole different system. Hopefully I can find a cylinder that will work. If anyone out there has a cylinder that will work please let me know. Thanks to everyone that responded. The folks on this forum are terrific!