JD 450c just stopped

[hoonboy]

I just put a new clutch,pressure plate,pilot bearing and release bearing in my JD450 C. I've been using it for four days with no problem and it has performed flawlessly and today while pushing a little pile of sand it just stopped dead and will not move. I can shift through all the gears with no grinding with no clutch depression which tells me there is no power being transferred to the transmission. I can't see any broken oil lines from the transmission to cooler and back. Oil level is okay. The input shaft looked fine when I had it apart. I notice that the PTO is not spinning either. I am afraid it is a failure of the input shaft or something on that order.
Anybody got any ideas. I want to exhaust every possibility before I pull this engine again.

 

[JDemaris]

Most of the time and a 450 all-of-a-sudden quits moving like that, it's because the roll-pin broke in the linkage that connects the clutch-pedal to the hydraulic valve on the HL-R transmission. When the clutch pedal and all linkage is right - a push half-way down disengages the hydraulics in the HL-R, and then all the way down disengages the dry-clutch on the engine flywheel.

Check that pin first - breaking it resulted in many road calls for us.

Obviously, if the imput shaft tore out of the clutch-disk splines, or the disk itself broke, you'd also have this situation. That seems highly unlikely though, especially since you weren't working it hard. I worked on 450s since they were invented and I've never seen that happen in any of them. I did though in a few 440 skidders.

 

[Noah W]

My 450c did the same thing 4-5 years ago. Didn't have the time to fix it being on the road 4-6 days a week. Hauled it to the JD heavy equipment shop. When they pulled everything off the top so they could get to the differential, they found the teeth ring had sheared off the bull gear. Seems as though Deere used a 2 piece bull gear with the teeth held on by rivets and this was a known problem with their design. Two ways to fix it. Either drop the tracks, pull the axles and differential, and re-rivet the teeth back in place. Or, use super high strength bolts to hold the teeth in place. This seems to be the preferred fix because the bolts hold just as well as the rivets, and there is a lot less labor( no pulling the axles) involved. If that is the case with yours, make sure you check the all the lines you can see for cracks and breaks, and get all of the pieces of the rivets out. They used a magnet to make sure they did. Been werking fine so far.

 

[hoonboy]

I have the service manual and I will check that roll pin. Right now I'm not sure where that is located. Is that serviceable without pulling the engine or is it in the clutch housing.

 

[hoonboy]

This sounds scary and expensive. I have to do my own wrenching
due to budget constraints so i sure hope this is not the problem
but I will check it out. Thanks aplenty.

 

[JDemaris]

It's under the front floor boards. There also a rubber plug there to access to adjust it via a 5/16" or 3/8" nut - which can also give trouble by coming loose. Loose nut or broken roll pin gives the same trouble.

 

[JDemaris]

Just about all companies have ring gears that are separate from the carriers. Deere has very few problems with it, and sheared rivets is extremely rare in an of them.

That being said, if your rivets had sheared, the machine would not move - BUT - the PTO would still work fine - and you said your's stopped.

If the PTO is not turning, the trans is not working.

 

[hoonboy]

But would the PTO stop spinning if the roll pin sheared. I thought it turned all the time regardless of the position of the clutch stage.

 

[JDemaris]

I worked as a Deere mechanic for three Deere dealerships back to the late 60s. But . . . I'm a little "rusty" on some of this - and I worked on many more 350s then 450s - simply because the 450s did not break near as much. As I recall, all the 350s (with F-R reversers) and all the 450s (with HL-Rs) only have power to the PTO when the trans is working and engaged. If powereing a winch, the trans must be engaged in forward - not reverse. Many crawlers we sold and serviced had PTO driven winches on them - so it was something that caught our attention when they didn't work.
The 440 wheeled log skidders however, used a special "through shaft" from the engine clutch the powered the PTO direct from the flywheel. This was done with a hollow transmission input shaft with another shaft inside of it.
You just had your 450 apart. If all you saw was - a solid splined trans. input shaft going into the clutch disk - then there is NO PTO drive unless the HL-R is engaged to make the output shaft turn.

 

[hoonboy]

I don't recall seeing a PTO linkage inside the clutch housing and there is no shift lever either. the input shaft looked like it was solid. I checked the clutch shift arm but I really can't tell if that pin has sheared through that little adjustment hole. I'll just have to drag her in saturday and pull the engine. I think it's that or a clutch disc to spline separation. I'll post my findings as soon as I know.
Thanks a bunch

 

[JDemaris]

If that pin is sheared you do NOT need to pull the engine to fix. I had to fix many out in the woods on road-calls.

 

[hoonboy]

Maybe I'm not looking at the right part but you are talking about a pin that holds the clutch linkage arm to the long shaft that runs into the transmission. Or is there a pin on the back end of that long shaft that would be accessible from the top cover of the tranny.

 

[JDemaris]

Well - again - I'm rusty - the last 450 I had to fix around mid-80s. The shaft you mention is the correct one but I think the roll pin that shears is inside the trans. You pull the top cover to get to it.

 

[hoonboy]

I was thinking if you removed that arm and replaced that pin through that round adjusting hole you really missed your calling. You should have been a surgeon. I'm gonna give it another look.

 

[JDemaris]

I had to fix a lot them out in the woods, sometimes when it was 10-20 degrees F. Many the 450s we sold were used by loggers out in the middle of nowhere.

If your engine clutch linkage gets out of adjustment, it can break that roll pin. Since you just had it all apart, you might have done something to help if break.

No matter what the actual problem is - if you pull the top cover off the trans, you'll be able to see if the tran-input is turning or not. If the tras input is NOT turning - then you know there's a problem on the outside with the clutch you just put in. If it IS turning - then you know the problem is in the trans - and hopefully that pin.

 

[hoonboy]

The fog is lifting. Thanks

 

[hoonboy]

Pulled the tranny top off and the pin in clutch shaft was ok. Fired it up and nothing is spinning in the trans. This indicates a problem with clutch disc or shaft, correct? I hope it's the disc. I bought that from Broken Tractors LLC. I hope they make it good.