JD 5420 starting problem

[[email protected]]

Cranks well does not fire. Problem started 2 weeks ago. By doing manual-specified bleeding operation have gotten it to start twice. After sitting a couple of days problem returns. Have replaced fuel filter. Have bled fuel system multiple times now and not starting. Fuel solenoid appears to work as it bleeds normally. Fuel tank full. My gut tells me diesel is not being delivered to cylinders. After above-mentioned earlier bleedings it started right up, so my gut tells me this is fuel-related. No obvious leaks in fuel lines. Are there other tests I can do to confirm that fuel is being delivered to the cylinders while cranking such as loosening one of the lines going from fuel pump to cylinder and seeing if fuel squirts out under pressure?

 

[Harry in Ky]

Are you SURE the fuel supply from the tank is what it should be? I've never run across one but I guess certain serial number tractors had a filter in the supply line from the tank. You say the tank id full. If so, and you remove the line from the filter base you should get a solid stream coming out of the hose. Have you confirmed that? Next, have you removed the hand primer assembly from the top of the filter base, inspected and cleaned all that? Those are the first things that need to be done BEFORE looking at/for injection pump problems.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/4487/referrer/navigation/pgId/1719232

 

[showcrop]

I had this problem with one of my Fords. I finally went through all connections in the fuel lines and just snugged them up. The problem went away and never came back. Just because you don't see leaking fuel doesn't mean that air is not getting drawn in.

 

[JD Dave]

This is an inherent problem with 20 series tractors in the 2000 + year range. I have a 5520 which would stall (or not start, maybe start and stall) if you breathed on it. There was no indication that the operator or fueling was at fault. Turned out, we put a John Deere fix on it which was basically a check valve in the supply line from the fuel tank. The tractor does not have a fuel supply pump to feed the injection pump. Poor design.

 

[miner09]

This is an inherent problem with 20 series tractors in the 2000 + year range. I have a 5520 which would stall (or not start, maybe start and stall) if you breathed on it. There was no indication that the operator or fueling was at fault. Turned out, we put a John Deere fix on it which was basically a check valve in the supply line from the fuel tank. The tractor does not have a fuel supply pump to feed the injection pump. Poor design.

I got a 5425 and jd had to put check valve in fuel line below tank. When new 2009

 

[[email protected]]

I have now checked for any leaks in the fuel line from the tank to the filter. The shut off valve did have a leak. I replaced the shut off valve, changed what appeared to be worn rubber tubing (though it did not appear to leak there), added the check valve mentioned above (I installed it at the low spot of the line from tank to filter). Did priming procedure several times. No change. Just cranks. The only thing recommended above that I have yet to do is to clean the priming pump. I can observe, though, that the priming pump works. I have followed the manual's priming procedure of loosening the fuel return line on top of the injector pump and seen fuel come out of there when hand pumping. I also, later, verified that I can observe fuel pumping out strongly right from the output line at the filter (when I crack that net). There is a strong flow of fuel when the fuel cock is opened just before the filter. Do you still feel it is necessary/wise to clean the manual pump considering what I describe? There is one thing that I find odd. When the key is in OFF position, the fuel solenoid should be closed and it should not be possible for me to manually pump fuel through it using the manual pump, correct? But I can, though the pump has resistance after the first stroke. When I turn the key to ON, I can also pump fuel through the return line, but I experience the same resistance after the first stroke. When I crack the output line at the filter itself, I do not experience the same resistance. I am able to pump fuel easily through that connector on all strokes. In this latter case, I am completely avoiding the injector pump. I am wondering if this observation leads to the conclusion that the fuel shut off solenoid is stuck in a mostly closed position?

 

[E.B. Haymakin']

I have now checked for any leaks in the fuel line from the tank to the filter. The shut off valve did have a leak. I replaced the shut off valve, changed what appeared to be worn rubber tubing (though it did not appear to leak there), added the check valve mentioned above (I installed it at the low spot of the line from tank to filter). Did priming procedure several times. No change. Just cranks. The only thing recommended above that I have yet to do is to clean the priming pump. I can observe, though, that the priming pump works. I have followed the manual's priming procedure of loosening the fuel return line on top of the injector pump and seen fuel come out of there when hand pumping. I also, later, verified that I can observe fuel pumping out strongly right from the output line at the filter (when I crack that net). There is a strong flow of fuel when the fuel cock is opened just before the filter. Do you still feel it is necessary/wise to clean the manual pump considering what I describe? There is one thing that I find odd. When the key is in OFF position, the fuel solenoid should be closed and it should not be possible for me to manually pump fuel through it using the manual pump, correct? But I can, though the pump has resistance after the first stroke. When I turn the key to ON, I can also pump fuel through the return line, but I experience the same resistance after the first stroke. When I crack the output line at the filter itself, I do not experience the same resistance. I am able to pump fuel easily through that connector on all strokes. In this latter case, I am completely avoiding the injector pump. I am wondering if this observation leads to the conclusion that the fuel shut off solenoid is stuck in a mostly closed position?

Maybe the issue issue is electrical to the fuel cutoff? Had that problem once on my New Holland

 

[Dieseltech]

Stanadyne DB2 pump, sounds like the metering valve and/or the rotor plungers are sticking so fuel can't be delivered to injectors when needed, could also be a weak/failing fuel stop solenoid. You SHOULD hear a click when using a jump wire from the bat hot post to the ungrounded post on the stop solenoid if it's working.

 

[Jim.ME]

Have you cracked the lines from the injection pump to the injection nozzles loose on the nozzle end, then cranked the engine over to see if you have fuel coming out those lines?

 

[[email protected]]

Regarding the test from pump to the nozzles is it important to loosen the connectors at the nozzle end as opposed to one of the four output ports of the injection pump? I would think I could crack any of the four nuts of the output ports and I should see diesel coming out when I crank the engine. If I don't then I work backwards from there.

Regarding the 'jump the solenoid' test, I would do that, of course with the key set to OFF, and just jump a +12v wire from the battery or elsewhere to the positive terminal of the fuel solenoid and I should hear that click, correct, much like a regular starter motor solenoid but probably not as loud.

Maybe the issue issue is electrical to the fuel cutoff? Had that problem once on my New Holland

I have checked that I have 12V across those fuel shutoff terminals when the key is in ON position.

 

[[email protected]]

Regarding the solenoid test, I assume with the key in OFF, I just jump a +12v wire to the positive terminal on the fuel shutoff solenoid and I should hear some kind of a çlick?

Regarding the test describing cracking the fuels lines exiting the injector pump going to the nozzles, do I have to do it at the nozzle end or can I also do it right where one of the 4 output lines come out of the injector pump? I would expect to see fuel spray out of there when the engine is cranking.

 

[Jim.ME]

Regarding the test from pump to the nozzles is it important to loosen the connectors at the nozzle end as opposed to one of the four output ports of the injection pump? I would think I could crack any of the four nuts of the output ports and I should see diesel coming out when I crank the engine. If I don't then I work backwards from there.

Regarding the 'jump the solenoid' test, I would do that, of course with the key set to OFF, and just jump a +12v wire from the battery or elsewhere to the positive terminal of the fuel solenoid and I should hear that click, correct, much like a regular starter motor solenoid but probably not as loud.

I have checked that I have 12V across those fuel shutoff terminals when the key is in ON position.

Cracking the line up at the nozzles clears air from the line, cacking at the pump doesn't clear air from the line up to the injector. you won't see a spray with the line cracked. You might see a good dribble and pulse as the engine cranks over. The spray comes from the nozzle blocking fuel flow until the valve in the injection nozzle "pops" making the spray at the nozzle tip in the cylinder. Air in the line between the pump and nozzle will compress and the nozzle often won't pop open and clear the air. If the line is full of fuel, the fuel does not compress and causes the nozzle to pop.

 

[[email protected]]

Cracking the line up at the nozzles clears air from the line, cacking at the pump doesn't clear air from the line up to the injector. you won't see a spray with the line cracked. You might see a good dribble and pulse as the engine cranks over. The spray comes from the nozzle blocking fuel flow until the valve in the injection nozzle "pops" making the spray at the nozzle tip in the cylinder. Air in the line between the pump and nozzle will compress and the nozzle often won't pop open and clear the air. If the line is full of fuel, the fuel does not compress and causes the nozzle to pop.

Thank you. So that sounds like if air did get into my fuel line and past the fuel injector into the lines to the nozzles/cylinders, this could be a problem that would have to be cleared in the manner you describe in order to get things running again?

 

[[email protected]]

Another question. While I was able to hand-pump fuel out of the output port of the filter, the fuel pours out of the input line if it is disconnected just from gravity from the tank. When I remove the output line connection from the filter, fuel does not pour out. Is this normal, that there is some kind of restriction within the priming pump/filter that prevents that free flowing fuel going into the filter from just coming out through the filter through the output port if the line is removed? Because if that is supposed to flow freely under those conditions, mine is NOT - and that could imply some kind of restriction within the pump/filter. Note that I have installed a brand new filter as part of diagnosing this.

 

[Jim.ME]

It is not unusual to have to bleed the fuel lines at the injectors after air has gotten into the system.

Again not unusual for fuel not to flow freely through a pump.

 

[showcrop]

Another question. While I was able to hand-pump fuel out of the output port of the filter, the fuel pours out of the input line if it is disconnected just from gravity from the tank. When I remove the output line connection from the filter, fuel does not pour out. Is this normal, that there is some kind of restriction within the priming pump/filter that prevents that free flowing fuel going into the filter from just coming out through the filter through the output port if the line is removed? Because if that is supposed to flow freely under those conditions, mine is NOT - and that could imply some kind of restriction within the pump/filter. Note that I have installed a brand new filter as part of diagnosing this.

Compared to an open fuel line a filter is a major restriction when it is gravity flow only.

 

[[email protected]]

To summarize where I am at this point, I tried cracking one of the lines at the nozzle end and cranked the engine. No sign of fluid or air bubbles. I then did the solenoid "click" test with a +12v from the batter to the + terminal on the fuel shutoff solenoid. I did hear some noise, but no satisfying 'click' I went back to using the priming pump with the fuel outlet from the filter cracked. It pumps fine and fuel squirts out. When I crack the fuel return line at the top of the injector pump and manually pump the first stroke is normal and then I feel a lot of resistance. I am able to get a small amount of fluid out of the fuel return line while pumping, but nothing like what occurs on my twin 5420. When I have the key set to OFF, I get exactly the same phenomenon of some fuel coming out of the fuel return line while using the priming pump, but not much and with great resistance to the manual pump.

I have concluded that I have a fuel solenoid stuck in an OFF (or almost OFF) position and have ordered this from JD. Thank you all for your help.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Did you also order a socket to remove the pump cover screws? Or have you already dealt with that before and have the tool on hand?

 

[[email protected]]

Did you also order a socket to remove the pump cover screws? Or have you already dealt with that before and have the tool on hand?

I am having the JD mechanic come install this. I am running out of time and I have 5 other tractors I have to worry about and hay season is possibly starting in just days. I feel frustrated and bad about not solving this myself but I am just too far behind this year....