John Deere 3010 hydraulic pump/joystick problem

[Sarge E6]

The joystick I have on my 3010 is listed as a closed center valve, (it has the plug in it.) When I put the valve in float. it pumps oil directly to tank, and the engine lugs down. An "expert" told me it's because the joystick is only a 10gpm valve and the pump is putting out 18gpm. I told him that the pump is just trying to maintain pressure, thankfully the valve is not bigger, or I would lose my steering and everything else. I'm no "expert" but, I don't think any valve used on a 3010 should ever direct oil directly from pump to tank. Therefore, I am looking for a 2-spool joystick valve w/float, that is a true closed center valve. This one also opens pressure to tank during the transition from center to pressurizing the cylinder, which makes it very hard to slowly engage the forklift attachment even at low throttle. I can sole the float problem with an electric shut off valve before the joystick, which solves the luging problem but doesn't do anything for the rest of the problems. Sorry for the book.

 

[Tx Jim]

May I ask where you're seeing 3010 hyd pump flow @ 18GPM. Tractordata doesn't show 3010 hyd system GPM BUT 3020 hyd system is 14 GPM FEL & 4020 is 13 GPM so I have my doubts that a WORN 3010 hyd system can provide 18 GPM. I think a 10 GPM valve should be fine on a 3010 hyd system.

Hyd control valve when placed in float position no matter if 10 GPH or 18GPH valve should not cause hyd pump to pump oil due to only opening a path for oil to move in/out of FEL cylinder barrel while hyd control valve is in float position.

Does this FEL control valve have a relief valve? If so it should be set to not open below 2250 psi or be screwed completely closed!!

Operating FEL with traction clutch pedal depressed causes trans pump to cease pumping oil which can cause front pump to cavitate IE be depleted of supply oil

When you state tank do you have return hose from FEL valve attached to trans case or much preferred rockshaft return line or ported hyd filter cover?????????

 

[Sarge E6]

Thanks for the response, Tx Jim
I figured it would be you because you've helped me in the past. The 18gpm was a figure of my memory, which at 83 hasn't been anything to brag about. I have no idea where it came from.
I have the pressure line hooked to a tee at the brakes and the return at the filter.
What makes me think that the joystick is the problem is twofold. 1. the engine lugs when in float. 2. it lugs immediately on any movement off center of the joystick and the neither the lift cylinders nor the bucket cylinders are doing anything.
I agree 100% that in float, the only flow should be between the two ends of the lift cylinders, and that should not have any effect on the pump.
I had it partially solved a couple of years ago with a Rube Goldburg setup using flow restrictors and the electric shutoff, but I didn't use all hydraulic connector components, and I had numerous leaks. I.E. the engine didn't lug in float, and I slowed down the movement of everything concerning the forks, but it was a pain physically diverting the flow for each system. I do like the rapid response for bucking snow, but the rapid engagement and the lugging engine with the forks is not only an irritant but is dangerous.
I had this same system on my "60" JD years ago (open center). I operated it with foot pedals, had upped the pressure on a "45" loader. It would lift more weight and worked fine but the narrow front end was inadequate. I don't think it would work at all with the bale spear. Guess I'm stuck with 3010, but I don't fell to bad about that!!!
Thanks again for your input

 

[Sarge E6]

I just reread my messages and your first reply to my wife (probably bored her to death) and noticed that I had missed a very important part that you said! I will check and see if there is a relief valve!
Never thought about that!

 

[wore out]

I just reread my messages and your first reply to my wife (probably bored her to death) and noticed that I had missed a very important part that you said! I will check and see if there is a relief valve!
Never thought about that!

Good to check the relief valve situation, even though I don't think that would cause the flow through the valve only in "float".

Is there any chance the supply and return lines are swapped or the return is from a "power beyond port"?

What is the make and model of the valve? Photo?

Some hydraulic valves are quite simple and others have more parts such as "load checks". Problems in that area could cause the "drop" when the valve is first activated, but probably NOT the other problems.

 

[Sarge E6]

Thanks, Wore Out for your input. If that's a description, I know how you feel. I'm almost afraid to call my friends, at my age (83) for fear that they are no longer alive
I haven't had a chance to check, but I don't think there is a check valve, on the joystick. That was just something no one else besides Tx Jim, had mentioned.
It doesn't drop when you move the joystick off center, nothing happens other than the engine starts to lug, which makes me think it's pumping to tank. moving the joystick further towards the intended function, it quits lugging and the loader lifts, or performs the intended function, with a jerk and the engine settles down, and doesn't lug even at the end of the cylinder that is moving. In other words, once the pressure in the pump is equalized, it quits pumping, as it's supposed to do. It appears to me that the joystick is acting as an open center until itis actually feeding the intended cylinder. Up until the joystick is moved slightly off-center, when you are trying to take things slow, everything woks properly. I think the pump, at that time is trying to compensate for a 10gpm leak!
I have never tried to turn the wheels while the engine is lugging, but I would be willing to bet I don't have power steering.
I'm going to try that, just for the heck of it.

 

[buickanddeere]

Thanks, Wore Out for your input. If that's a description, I know how you feel. I'm almost afraid to call my friends, at my age (83) for fear that they are no longer alive
I haven't had a chance to check, but I don't think there is a check valve, on the joystick. That was just something no one else besides Tx Jim, had mentioned.
It doesn't drop when you move the joystick off center, nothing happens other than the engine starts to lug, which makes me think it's pumping to tank. moving the joystick further towards the intended function, it quits lugging and the loader lifts, or performs the intended function, with a jerk and the engine settles down, and doesn't lug even at the end of the cylinder that is moving. In other words, once the pressure in the pump is equalized, it quits pumping, as it's supposed to do. It appears to me that the joystick is acting as an open center until itis actually feeding the intended cylinder. Up until the joystick is moved slightly off-center, when you are trying to take things slow, everything woks properly. I think the pump, at that time is trying to compensate for a 10gpm leak!
I have never tried to turn the wheels while the engine is lugging, but I would be willing to bet I don't have power steering.
I'm going to try that, just for the heck of it.

TxJim has this well covered .
Ain’t never supposed to pump to tank when stationary , that is an open centre situation when no hydraulics are being used .
Closed centre , no oil flows in the supply line and no oil returns to the filter housing or rock shaft return line .
Dumping loader or orbit more directly into the transmission case is not a good idea . This starves the front pump . It is good that you have the oil returning to a posted oil filter cover .
Does sound like a relief valve or a blown o’ring ? If there is a relief valve in the controls , it needs to be jammed closed tight .

 

[Sarge E6]

Joystick

Brand Hydraulics

Model LV22RFSTKA2BW

S.N. 338187-2000



I am writing one final post, to say thank you to Tx Jim, wore out and buickanddeere for taking the time and putting forth the effort to help me with an ongoing problem that no one else has been able to solve, myself included.

I have never considered myself an expert in hydraulics even though I was the head mechanic at a JD dealership in my younger days and even went to JD headquarters for training, (on the new hydraulics) when the 3010s etc. were introduced.

I did not get to Dallas for the unveiling, which bummed me out, but the John Deere Day following was a day I have never forgotten.

Anyway, I said all that just to ay THANK YOU guys, it was the relief valve.

I have no idea what it was set at, but now it is shut off. The engine still notices that you have moved the joystick, slightly, so it probably is leaking some, but it has no problem keeping up.

I don’t know which kind it is but I presume it is just a ball. If a new one is not available, I will attempt to reseat it as I have a fairly complete metal working shop and have made numerous items for friends, and myself that are no longer available.

The thing that gets to me is the fact that I told the dealer that I was installing the valve on a 3010 JD and needed a closed center. He stated that they had sold a number of them for the application and his crew knew exactly how to set it up for use on a JD, which they did do and I even took it back to them for checking because it immediately had the problem.

I kick myself in the rear for not coming up with the answer myself at that time. The only excuse I can come up with is the one my wife supplied. Her answer was simple, she said, “Why are you so upset with yourself? “Your mind has been on overload for a long time, if you’re not trying to solve your own problems, you’re working on someone else’s.”

Anyway, I am now a “happy camper,” thanks to you all!

Tony

 

[Tx Jim]

You're welcome.
Thank you for your update which may help future readers of this site.

Closed center hyd's takes a lot of experience to understand. Every once in a while I learn something new concerning hydraulics.

I wish internet was available when I served as a JD dealer service manager from '74-'87

I remember attending JD New Generation introduction held at Dallas fairgrounds in the Fall of 1960. I can still envision the shiny 4010 under bright lights going round & round on the giant turntable.

 

[Sarge E6]

A warning for anyone that owns a 3010 or 4010, or actually anything JD at least thru the 20 series. I don't know much about the later series because the 20series had just been out a couple of years when I decided to follow the woman I loved to the twin cities where she had just graduated as an RN and was working at a major Hospital, and find a job digging ditches if I had to, it was tough leaving my position as head grease monkey, but love conquers all! ANYWAY, back to the subject at hand.
When the 10 series came out, they leaked oil everywhere! John Deere sent us two tractors, that we were to loan out to the farmers that had purchased one, so that we could get theirs into the shop and repair it. They were not about to give up their tractor just because it got dirty, and dirty they got! Some of them didn't show any green paint at all. You would think they were painted BLACK!
The most dangerous leak was in the steering system. I'm sure most JD fans already know that there is no mechanical link between the steering wheel and the wheels on those series. As I said I don't know about any of the newer series, but I have firsthand knowledge concerning a 4010 that one of my neighbors owns. As I said the only link to the wheels is hydraulic pressure while the engine is running. There is a backup system in the steering housing that consists of a piston on a treaded shaft which is connected to the steering wheel, thru a series of valves, pressure is created to turn the wheels in the direction you want to go, if the engine isn't running, the key phrase there is ENGINE NOT RUNNING. A quick test is, don't start the engine, turn the steering wheel, if there is play or delay, the steering box needs to be rebuilt. The reason I include DELAY, is because fluid cannot we compressed, it is the principle behind hydraulics. It's like the brakes on a vehicle, if the pedal is spongey, you either have air in the system or a leak. Either is a killer!
Back to my friend and his pride and joy. I watched him as he went by my place with his love, wide open in 8th gear. He had a round bale on the spear, I waved at him, and he waved back with a big smile on his face. I live 1/2 mile and around a corner from the bridge over I35. I went about what I was doing and shortly heard sirens on the freeway which stopped approx. at the bridge. I thought someone must have hit a deer, which happens every once in a while. I'm sure you know where this is going. Here it goes anyway. For some reason just as he was approaching the bridge, the engine died, he had no brakes, no steering and the tractor dove for the ditch, which was actually the down sloop to the freeway. It was just luck mixed with quick thinking that saved his life. He thought fast enough to drop the bale, which completely shredded by the time he got to the freeway and the bale spear stuck into the freeway bank and stopped the tractor. The guy that called 911 said he did so because he saw the whole thing and couldn't believe he wasn't hurt, as he saw him hit the steering wheel. He was very sore, but nothing was broken.
He was a little ticked at me, because he said why didn't you say something, I had no idea that could happen.
Now you know, so if it happens to you, don't blame me!

 

[Sarge E6]

I have another concern that also involves hydraulics. This happens to be on our cars and pick-ups'
HYDRAULIC BRAKES
I have never been able to figure out why the manufacturers of our cars and trucks aren't forced to install stainless steel brake lines on them. At least any vehicle that is going to used or sold in the North country being that the highway departments use salt in abundance on the roads so that nobody has to slow down or even learn how to control their car in an emergency. I learned on our local lake, at the age of 14. We were just having fun, but I learned a lot regardless. I also learned how to control a front wheel drive vehicle. Long story short, I had the Jeep on the lake many times when everything was working and learned the differences between 2-wheel control and 4-wheel drive control. Ironically, I had twisted off a back axle disking with it and then that winter took it out on the lake to have some fun. All I had was front wheel drive. Learned quickly that the old rules for pulling out of skid DID NOT APPLY! Later in life when we purchased our first EL Dorado, I told my wife, if she ever got into skid, she had to drive out using the gas pedal instead of the brakes, or she would end up in the ditch, backwards. Took her a whole week to prove that point.

It must just be a personal problem because I've heard of many accidents because of brake failure but have never heard announced that it was caused by a ruptured brake line. Now I don't care about the bend of the tin or the latest gimmick that you just have to have.
You can think of me as an old fuddy-duddy, but I've been this way most of my life.
I took a driver's education class in high school even though I had been driving our grain trucks and Jeep since I was 12. I was my dad's hired help first of all and a kid secondly.
In the class, I didn't learn much that I remember, but one phrase that the instructor drilled home was concerning brakes and I have never forgotten it.
He said, when you get in your car you must go through a check list just like a pilot does. I don't remember the rest of the points, but he drilled one of them into our heads. It went like this. Before you even start the engine step on the brake pedal and push hard, because if your brakes are going to fail, they will fail when you need them the most and at that time you will probably be tromping on the pedal!

as I stated earlier, I don't get a different car just because it is outdated according to the general public. I buy good cars, in my opinion, and drive them until it's not monetarily feasible to fix whatever is wrong. Consequently, practically, every vehicle I have owned has had the brake lines replaced with stainless steel. Every one of them rusted out and failed/burst. I hope this doesn't come as a surprise, but every one of them failed in my DRIVEWAY! I have my 98 Dodge Ram on the hoist waiting for its stainless tubes as I speak. Yeah, the line burst in the driveway! RUST!
Which makes me wonder how many people's lives would have been saved if they had just done that simple test, or if our erstwhile Government whose mandate is a simple phrase, stating that their first and most important job is to keep the population protected from harm from within and outside threats. Maybe protection from ourselves should be added.
Tony

 

[Tx Jim]

JD engineers installed hyd accumulators to help solve the steering/brake loss on JD New & Newer generation tractors you referred to. JD closed center hyd systems are very similar in operation all the way up through the 60 series.

 

[Sarge E6]

Hey Jim
They never made it retroactive, did they? My steering needs rebuilding badly. I bought the kit, just never got around to doing it. I was going to do it this winter but as usual other things got in the way,

 

[Tx Jim]

Hyd accumulator was never offered on a 3010. Repairing steering valve & adjusting the internal components requires a special plate & a dial indicator. Back when I served as a JD dealer service manager for 13 yrs I've witnessed more than one so called mechanics had to try several times to get internal valves set correctly. Shown in photos are some of Tim Sweeney steering valve repairs & testing procedure. R&R of that steering valve isn't a real easy task.