Jube on Synthetic

[Tall T]

I finally got around to putting Amsoil 100% synthetic in the Jube
with predictable results.

I've used conventional 15W40 in the '53 since I bought it.
With regular my oil pressure hovered around 40 psi at low idle.

So with the synthetic the low idle sped up a little and the pressure is steady at about 44 psi. I actually have to lower the idle screw a little.

Also, which I had hoped, the crankcase ventilation fumes are easier to take. About crankcase ventilation, I was contemplating putting a downward blowby tube from my GM collection of parts, onto the Jube so that crankcase ventilation isn't in your face when you drive down the road. So I discover, that unlike GM, the air is taken in at the filler pipe and exhausted out the cleanable vent on the valve cover. No wonder it is in one's face as it blows backward. Leave it to FORD
to vent the crankcase fumes up top! Real health consciousness, that Henry.

So I'm thinking about a long tube from valve cover to below block, bracketed to the block at the pan mount flange. with an angled cut like the GM blowby pipe, so the passing helps pull foul air out of the cover.and subsequently more fresh into the oil filler cap.

Conventional

Synthetic

 

[Tall T]

Typo:

so the AIR passing the end of the pipe created some draw pulling more foul air out of the cover.and subsequently more fresh in to the crankcase through the oil filler cap.

 

[Jim L WA]

Tall T. Perhaps Henry didn't expect a lot of blow by from his engines while G.M. did. I have a '54 NAA that doesn't have any noticeable blow by. I never see any or smell any coming back at me. Don't take this wrong, but it might be time to put a set of rings in your 67 year old tractor.

 

[R Geiger]

I would never put full synthetic oil in an engine that had been running normal oil unless I did a complete overhaul and cleanout. But that is just me! use what you want!

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 16:44:39 05/09/20) I would never put full synthetic oil in an engine that had been running normal oil unless I did a complete overhaul and cleanout. But that is just me! use what you want!

I've done it multiple times and there is nothing to worry about. In fact most synthetics today are in fact refined crude oil (Group III+). They are more aggressively refined than Group II which gives them a very high viscosity index that qualifies them as "synthetic". AMSOIL is still primarily PAO (Goup IV) but fully compatible with Group II and III base oils.

TOH

 

[Indiana Ken]

Have you thought of plumbing back to the inlet manifold via a PCV valve? That a way it gets burned and you don't have to smell it.

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 13:18:51 05/09/20) Tall T. Perhaps Henry didn't expect a lot of blow by from his engines while G.M. did. I have a '54 NAA that doesn't have any noticeable blow by. I never see any or smell any coming back at me. Don't take this wrong, but it might be time to put a set of rings in your 67 year old tractor.

Jim,
Since I've had the tractor (2014) I've never had to add a drop of
top-up oil so I think my rings are fine. Being as my oil pressure is like factory pressure I'm sure the rings were done at the same time as the bearings.

What I do need is a valve de-carboning or grind.

Took it a half mile to a friends farm today where i park it and catch the bus to the food store. Fourth gear and not a trace of smell meeting my nostrils. Kind of like the Lucas synthetic, smokeless 2-cycle mix in my chainsaws.

I did a hundred Amsoil conversions in the 80's and always did a crankcase flush first . . . except for this time. I let it drip for a couple of hours and jacked up the front a little to level the oil pan to get the max out.

TOH
Yep, totally compatible.

Thanks,
T

 

[Tall T]

Ken,

Good plan.
That's what I tried with my old Chev 6 but I made a mistake because in the Chev the crankcase air flows INTO the valve cover and out the vent pipe down below. We always called that the blowby pipe, but it is really just the outpipe for the cranckcase3 ventilation.

But in this case with the breathing reversed, your idea [b:46ec4c7520]wil[/b:46ec4c7520]l work.

thanks,
T

 

[Duner Wi]

What weight Amsoil did you use? Petrol or diesel oil?
Just curious.

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 10:50:25 05/10/20) What weight Amsoil did you use? Petrol or diesel oil?
Just curious.

Duner,

15W40 Diesel Oil

I've got the same oil in my Chev 235. (1953 engine)
I had it in my '51 van before I parked it 20 years ago.

I was blown away how clean and shiny the rocker shaft assembly was when I pulled the valve cover in 2018 after all that time.

 

[Tall T]

Duner,

this one:

 

[Duner Wi]

Thanks, Amsoil seems to have many choices.Your 235 really clean.

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 20:14:01 05/10/20) Thanks, Amsoil seems to have many choices.Your 235 really clean.

Choices for sure, and all those viscosity choices is what drew me to the company in the first place and got me into sales and doing conversions. there was 10W40, 15W40 and 20W50 right from the beginning.
At the time (mid seventies) the only other choices were a very thin Mobil 1 (5W10 I think it was) and another one I can't remember, neither of which would do in well used engines. Nowadays their choices and specific applications are really off the map.

 

[grouser]

changing oil viscosity, weight, or from dino to synthetic can change the wear patterns of the engine. You won't see,feel, hear that happening,,,,but it is,,,,,
does it make a difference?
dunno,,,you do it to your tractor, I'll watch. Why would anyone want to keep the same oil in a motor for an extended time is beyond me. clean fresh oil is the key to long life. imho You could change oil three times for the same money you pay for synthetic.....

I know,,arguing about oil is fruitless,,just saying

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 09:31:11 05/13/20) changing oil viscosity, weight, or from dino to synthetic can change the wear patterns of the engine. You won't see,feel, hear that happening,,,,but it is,,,,,
does it make a difference?
dunno,,,you do it to your tractor, I'll watch. Why would anyone want to keep the same oil in a motor for an extended time is beyond me. clean fresh oil is the key to long life. imho You could change oil three times for the same money you pay for synthetic.....

I know,,arguing about oil is fruitless,,just saying

Confuscious say:

Anyone wanting to realize the advantage of extended drain or oil longevity, must change just oil filter as frequently as one would change conventional oil.

As for your wear pattern theory, Confuscious wans't into comedy.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 14:08:55 05/13/20)

Confuscious say:

Anyone wanting to realize the advantage of extended drain or oil longevity, must change just oil filter as frequently as one would change conventional oil.

I guess OEM's like BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, GM, Ford, etc. didn't get that Confucious memo.

TOH

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 17:45:17 05/13/20)

(quoted from post at 14:08:55 05/13/20)

Confuscious say:

Anyone wanting to realize the advantage of extended drain or oil longevity, must change just oil filter as frequently as one would change conventional oil.

I guess OEM's like BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, GM, Ford, etc. didn't get that Confucious memo.

TOH

You're right. Confuciuos was having his first senior moment
and got carried away.

But I found that many engines I did that had been running on conventional for a long time needed a frequent filter changes at the start with Amsoil because that Diester synthetic cleaned the innards up so much. But with the big fat bypass filter on my Chev van and an internally spotless engine as you can see by my rocker shaft and head, I don't need other than recommended filter changes. But in the cases of old engines I discovered that the extended drain period needed my early filter change qualification and one tow GM tow truck I did in Vancouver was sure a case in point.

I converted truck 56 of City wide Towing in Vancouver after a long sales pitch to the boss. I did the flush and change out in the alley behind his house. I came back to the island and a week later got a call from Mel. He said truck 56 is now using oil and why did I think that was. I said I think that the spin on filter is saturated from the internal cleanup (flush and all) and so now the dirt in suspension isn't letting the rings seal. So anyway, to keep him happy I caught the ferry back over to Van and just changed the spin on Densite filter. A week or so later he called me on the phone from Vancouver and said, "You were right, fifty six isn't using oil any more.

Same thing happened with two old Volvos I did.

Hope you don't treat me like a fool because this is true!

So with the jubilee, if and when I see the oil getting dirty prematurely, then I'll change the filter.

I remember in the past after thousands of miles on my Van, same filter and the oil was still see-thru golden.

Terry

 

[Hobo,NC]

If the crankcase vent bothers ya hook up a garden hose at the vent run it to the rear of the tractor and vent it to the rear problem solved...

Its not as simple are using a PCV valve are venting it to the air filter it sounds good but opens up a can of worms..

If you engine is as good as you make it leave it BE...

Oils today are more on the synthetic side than conventional I doubt you will find much conventional today unless it NOS...

I don't believe you oil made more oil pressure that's my personal opinion for what its worth so don't get yer drawers in a wade over it...

 

[Tall T]

(quoted from post at 19:14:46 05/13/20)
If the crankcase vent bothers ya hook up a garden hose at the vent run it to the rear of the tractor and vent it to the rear problem solved...

Its not as simple are using a PCV valve are venting it to the air filter it sounds good but opens up a can of worms..

If you engine is as good as you make it leave it BE...

Oils today are more on the synthetic side than conventional I doubt you will find much conventional today unless it NOS...

I don't believe you oil made more oil pressure that's my personal opinion for what its worth so don't get yer drawers in a wade over it...

I agree.
All good!

 

[grouser]

(quoted from post at 19:08:55 05/13/20)

(quoted from post at 09:31:11 05/13/20) changing oil viscosity, weight, or from dino to synthetic can change the wear patterns of the engine. You won't see,feel, hear that happening,,,,but it is,,,,,
does it make a difference?
dunno,,,you do it to your tractor, I'll watch. Why would anyone want to keep the same oil in a motor for an extended time is beyond me. clean fresh oil is the key to long life. imho You could change oil three times for the same money you pay for synthetic.....

I know,,arguing about oil is fruitless,,just saying

Confuscious say:

Anyone wanting to realize the advantage of extended drain or oil longevity, must change just oil filter as frequently as one would change conventional oil.

As for your wear pattern theory, Confuscious wans't into comedy.

so you have a 100% effective, foolproof filter that gets everything bad out of the engine all the time, and then manages to get the last bit of sediment out of the bottom of the pan,,,you know the stuff right next to the drain plug,,,

if you think all oils wear an engine the same exact way,,,,why bother with the different viscosity oils then,,,,,,
don't believe me. rub your hands together with lightweight oil on them,,
see how hot they get
now do it with the heaviest weight oil,,,,,,feel the difference?

your friend confusouis should stay out of the shop, and in the cookie factory,,,,,,,
now that's was funny right there lol

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 09:31:11 05/13/20) changing oil viscosity, weight, or from dino to synthetic can change the wear patterns of the engine. You won't see,feel, hear that happening,,,,but it is,,,,,
does it make a difference?
dunno,,,you do it to your tractor, I'll watch. Why would anyone want to keep the same oil in a motor for an extended time is beyond me. clean fresh oil is the key to long life. imho You could change oil three times for the same money you pay for synthetic.....

I know,,arguing about oil is fruitless,,just saying

Urban myth grouser and TOH, give it up. Synthetics control the viscosity and weight with changes in heat and pressure many times more effectively than dyno oil. Dyno oil has been enhanced with synthetics for probably 40 years and getting better and better until the point where the dyno component just no longer made sense.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 07:05:00 05/14/20) Urban myth grouser and TOH, give it up. Synthetics control the viscosity and weight with changes in heat and pressure many times more effectively than dyno oil. Dyno oil has been enhanced with synthetics for probably 40 years and getting better and better until the point where the dyno component just no longer made sense.

You need to read more carefully. I am a strong proponent of synthetic oils and use them in all my vehicles. They vastly outperform conventional oils . My comment was aimed at the "urban myth" that extended OCI's required an additional filter change at the mid point.

But you are simply dead wrong on the dinosaur component. The (vast???) majority of full synthetic engine oil on the shelf today is formulated from Group III+ base oils. Very high and ultra high viscosity index (VHVI/UHVI) Group III oils are aggressively refined from petroleum crude in a subtractive chemical process. These refining techniques effectively remove impurities and significantly alter the molecular structure of the petroleum molecules. That chemical alteration of molecular structure is key. Castrol pioneered these types of oils and refining techniques in the 80's and in 1991 successfully defended their use of the full synthetic label when marketing them (see Mobil v. Castrol lawsuit).

In that same time frame Group IV (PAO) synthetics were being pioneered by Mobil these base oils are produced by recombiant chemical process where simple molecular chains of a non-petroleum organic compound (tyically ethylene) are combined into more complex organic chains. The end product is a very molecularly uniform and pure high performance Group IV base lubricating oil. PAO base oils are generally higher performance and cost than their Group III+ cousins. That higher cost has been their commercial downfall.

Today, to control costs and compete for market share most [b:5f907e713e]full synthetic [/b:5f907e713e] 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 engine oils are formulated with Group III base oil and a much smaller percentage of PAO and/or ester. When you get to the wide spread long life multi-grades like 0W40 and 5w50 the proportion of PAO and ester used in the formulation goes up significantly but some "dino" is stillncommonly used because PAO alone lacks the solubility needed to hold the additive packages. Esters can be used for that purpose as well but are really expensive. The 100% "pure" PAO and ester synthetic engine oils are a niche market served by companies like Amsoil and Schaeffer. High performance engine oils but at a very premium price.

TOH

 

[showcrop]

(quoted from post at 06:27:14 05/14/20)

(quoted from post at 07:05:00 05/14/20) Urban myth grouser and TOH, give it up. Synthetics control the viscosity and weight with changes in heat and pressure many times more effectively than dyno oil. Dyno oil has been enhanced with synthetics for probably 40 years and getting better and better until the point where the dyno component just no longer made sense.

You need to read more carefully. I am a strong proponent of synthetic oils and use them in all my vehicles. They vastly outperform conventional oils . My comment was aimed at the "urban myth" that extended OCI's required an additional filter change at the mid point.

But you are simply dead wrong on the dinosaur component. The (vast???) majority of full synthetic engine oil on the shelf today is formulated from Group III+ base oils. Very high and ultra high viscosity index (VHVI/UHVI) Group III oils are aggressively refined from petroleum crude in a subtractive chemical process. These refining techniques effectively remove impurities and significantly alter the molecular structure of the petroleum molecules. That chemical alteration of molecular structure is key. Castrol pioneered these types of oils and refining techniques in the 80's and in 1991 successfully defended their use of the full synthetic label when marketing them (see Mobil v. Castrol lawsuit).

In that same time frame Group IV (PAO) synthetics were being pioneered by Mobil these base oils are produced by recombiant chemical process where simple molecular chains of a non-petroleum organic compound (tyically ethylene) are combined into more complex organic chains. The end product is a very molecularly uniform and pure high performance Group IV base lubricating oil. PAO base oils are generally higher performance and cost than their Group III+ cousins. That higher cost has been their commercial downfall.

Today, to control costs and compete for market share most [b:63efe5529e]full synthetic [/b:63efe5529e] 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 engine oils are formulated with Group III base oil and a much smaller percentage of PAO and/or ester. When you get to the wide spread long life multi-grades like 0W40 and 5w50 the proportion of PAO and ester used in the formulation goes up significantly but some "dino" is stillncommonly used because PAO alone lacks the solubility needed to hold the additive packages. Esters can be used for that purpose as well but are really expensive. The 100% "pure" PAO and ester synthetic engine oils are a niche market served by companies like Amsoil and Schaeffer. High performance engine oils but at a very premium price.

TOH

So we have synthetic blended with petroleum molecules that are significantly altered in their molecular structure. That is actually still considered to be dyno oil?

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 18:07:54 05/14/20)

(quoted from post at 06:27:14 05/14/20)

(quoted from post at 07:05:00 05/14/20) Urban myth grouser and TOH, give it up. Synthetics control the viscosity and weight with changes in heat and pressure many times more effectively than dyno oil. Dyno oil has been enhanced with synthetics for probably 40 years and getting better and better until the point where the dyno component just no longer made sense.

You need to read more carefully. I am a strong proponent of synthetic oils and use them in all my vehicles. They vastly outperform conventional oils . My comment was aimed at the "urban myth" that extended OCI's required an additional filter change at the mid point.

But you are simply dead wrong on the dinosaur component. The (vast???) majority of full synthetic engine oil on the shelf today is formulated from Group III+ base oils. Very high and ultra high viscosity index (VHVI/UHVI) Group III oils are aggressively refined from petroleum crude in a subtractive chemical process. These refining techniques effectively remove impurities and significantly alter the molecular structure of the petroleum molecules. That chemical alteration of molecular structure is key. Castrol pioneered these types of oils and refining techniques in the 80's and in 1991 successfully defended their use of the full synthetic label when marketing them (see Mobil v. Castrol lawsuit).

In that same time frame Group IV (PAO) synthetics were being pioneered by Mobil these base oils are produced by recombiant chemical process where simple molecular chains of a non-petroleum organic compound (tyically ethylene) are combined into more complex organic chains. The end product is a very molecularly uniform and pure high performance Group IV base lubricating oil. PAO base oils are generally higher performance and cost than their Group III+ cousins. That higher cost has been their commercial downfall.

Today, to control costs and compete for market share most [b:cde4420220]full synthetic [/b:cde4420220] 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 engine oils are formulated with Group III base oil and a much smaller percentage of PAO and/or ester. When you get to the wide spread long life multi-grades like 0W40 and 5w50 the proportion of PAO and ester used in the formulation goes up significantly but some "dino" is stillncommonly used because PAO alone lacks the solubility needed to hold the additive packages. Esters can be used for that purpose as well but are really expensive. The 100% "pure" PAO and ester synthetic engine oils are a niche market served by companies like Amsoil and Schaeffer. High performance engine oils but at a very premium price.

TOH

So we have synthetic blended with petroleum molecules that are significantly altered in their molecular structure. That is actually still considered to be dyno oil?

Group III base oil is oil refined from raw petroleum crude oil feed stock so yes it is dino oil. It is distinct from Group IV oils that are produced from ethylene gas which is not (at least directly) a petroleum product. It is distinct from Group V ester base oils which are made from alcohol and carbolyic acid, again a non pretrolem feed stock.

The industry has also adopted another "unofficial" group base oil classification called Group III+. This classification is not (yet) an officially recognized category by API. Group III+ base oils are produced from [u:cde4420220]methane[/u:cde4420220] (aka natural) gas feed stocks by a process called Gas to Liquids (GTL). Since the methane used as a feed stock is a petroleum gas extracted from the ground these oils are also "dino" oils. In the GTL process the methane feed stock is first cleaned of impurities that would poison the catalytic process that follows. The cleaned methane is then reacted to break the methane molecules (CH4) apart into an admixture called "syngas" - a mixture of carbon monoxide (CO) and hydrogen (H2). The syngas is then used as a feed stock for more traditional petroleum refining processes where the hydrogen and carbon monoxide molecules are chemically reacted yet again to produce larger fully saturated long chain hydrocarbons and aromatics. If this sounds a lot like synthesizing PAO it is and indeed Group III+ base oils have performance characteristics approaching PAO.

The bottom line is when you pull a bottle or jug of something labeled [b:cde4420220]fully synthetic engine oil[/b:cde4420220] off the shelf at an auto store the base oil used to blend it likely started out as rotted vegetation and decaying dinosaur bones pumped in one form or another from the ground. It will also likely contain a small amount of PAO or ester synthetics that are not petroleum based.

Which begs the question of what a "synthetic blend" is. These products are typically less aggressively refined group I and/or II oils blended with a Group III oil which qualifies the blend as partially synthetic. There may or may not be any PAO or ester component in them and you should expect performance to fall well short of products labeled fully synthetic.

TOH

 

[Btzj02]

I learned more about lubricating oil by reading this thread then I learned in 11 years working in an oil refinery and 20 years in a generating plant. One question that I can't seem to find an answer to:
If the 8N originally used hydraulic/transmission 80 weight oil in the winter and 90 weight in the summer can I use 80W90 for hydraulic/transmission oil? This last month I did a lot of research on these heavy lube oils and after spinning my wheels for days I just gave up and got the Ford oil the tractor shop recommends.
JB

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 23:28:15 05/14/20) I learned more about lubricating oil by reading this thread then I learned in 11 years working in an oil refinery and 20 years in a generating plant. One question that I can't seem to find an answer to:
If the 8N originally used hydraulic/transmission 80 weight oil in the winter and 90 weight in the summer can I use 80W90 for hydraulic/transmission oil? This last month I did a lot of research on these heavy lube oils and after spinning my wheels for days I just gave up and got the Ford oil the tractor shop recommends.
JB

SAE 80W90 hypoid gear oil or Universal Tractor Transmission Fluid are both good choices. I think I explained my reasoning at some length when you asked that question earlier this year.

TOH

 

[Btzj02]

I think I explained my reasoning at some length when you asked that question earlier this year.

LOL
My wife says I have no memory, and have selective hearing. Your memory amazes me. I will go back and read again. At least it makes me feel like my thinking is not too far off the mark.
Thanks JB