Long 460 clutch problems

[Donald Jones]

Clutch not working . Long 460 set up 4 years , got it running , rotary mowed 12 acres . Mowed more the next day , stopped tractor at idle with mower working . I got back on tractor , depressed the clutch , not working , no grinding . Has anyone had this problem ? I have split my Massey 35 apart , but need information on how to split the Long 460 and what I need to remove .

 

[used red MN]

Hello Don welcome to YT! Sounds like a repair manual would have your answers. Since our host does not seem to list manuals for Long tractors here are my recommendations. Farm Manuals Fast for downloadable versions and Peaceful Creek for hard copies.

 

[RedMVa]

Yes this ^^^^, you definitely need the manuals. It has the dual clutch and you need the measurements to set it up

 

[Donald Jones]

Yes this ^^^^, you definitely need the manuals. It has the dual clutch and you need the measurements to set it up

Thank you !

Hello Don welcome to YT! Sounds like a repair manual would have your answers. Since our host does not seem to list manuals for Long tractors here are my recommendations. Farm Manuals Fast for downloadable versions and Peaceful Creek for hard copies.

Thank you !

 

[Donald Jones]

Hello Don welcome to YT! Sounds like a repair manual would have your answers. Since our host does not seem to list manuals for Long tractors here are my recommendations. Farm Manuals Fast for downloadable versions and Peaceful Creek for hard copies.

Thank you !

 

[Steve@Advance]

Welcome Don!

I'm not familiar with the Long tractor, but before going into the clutch, do some preliminary checks to be sure it really is the clutch.

From what I understand of your description, there is no drive. It could be something beyond the clutch. There should be a way to peek into the transmission through a cover or fill plug and see what is turning, or not.

Being a dual clutch, chances are the PTO is still operative. But looking into the transmission, if the drive components are turning, the problem is not the clutch. Just be careful, it could decide to go into gear without notice!

 

[Donald Jones]

Welcome Don!

I'm not familiar with the Long tractor, but before going into the clutch, do some preliminary checks to be sure it really is the clutch.

From what I understand of your description, there is no drive. It could be something beyond the clutch. There should be a way to peek into the transmission through a cover or fill plug and see what is turning, or not.

Being a dual clutch, chances are the PTO is still operative. But looking into the transmission, if the drive components are turning, the problem is not the clutch. Just be careful, it could decide to go into gear without notice!

I will try to get a manual . I took an inspection plate off each side at the clutch and cranked the motor and put both gear shifters in gear . I took a bright flashlight at night to look inside . The pressure plate was spinning , but the splined shaft was not moving . I know with dual clutch the pto shaft in inside the transmission shaft and read that the pto clutch was against the flywheel . the next thing I did after shut off was to put both gears in , low and 3 rd . I could take a large screwdriver and turn the pressure plate , it should not do that , it should have tried to turn the motor .

 

[used red MN]

I will try to get a manual . I took an inspection plate off each side at the clutch and cranked the motor and put both gear shifters in gear . I took a bright flashlight at night to look inside . The pressure plate was spinning , but the splined shaft was not moving . I know with dual clutch the pto shaft in inside the transmission shaft and read that the pto clutch was against the flywheel . the next thing I did after shut off was to put both gears in , low and 3 rd . I could take a large screwdriver and turn the pressure plate , it should not do that , it should have tried to turn the motor .

If you are using proper terminology the pressure plate will turn, certainly there should be some resistance because you are also turning the engine. However, with the transmission in gear if all is correct it should make the rear tractor wheels turn. But by running the engine and having it in gear and the shaft not spinning already confirms a problem. I believe what happened was when the tractor sat the lined clutch plate was stuck to the metal driving surfaces. The first time you pushed it the lining was slightly pulled from the mounting rivets, possibly cracking the lining material. This only happened to one of the lined sides of the plate. Luckily the other side came unstuck so the clutch would release and you could put it in gear. I think what happened was the stressed side of the lining broke apart when you pushed the clutch and it all slung out of there. Now only one side of the clutch disc has lining on it. It is now to thin for the pressure plate to pinch it to get it to do any driving or turning of the transmission.

 

[Jim.ME]

The pressure plate was spinning , but the splined shaft was not moving .

I could take a large screwdriver and turn the pressure plate , it should not do that , it should have tried to turn the motor .

I am having difficulty understanding the results of the checking you have done.

The pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel. The flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft. Clutch disc condition aside, turning the pressure plate should turn the flywheel, which will turn the engine. If turning the pressure plate doesn't turn the engine when you pry on it, there is something seriously wrong.

If the friction material on "the stressed side of the lining broke apart when you pushed the clutch and it all slung out of there", as used red MN suggested, the engine still would have turned when you turned the pressure plate. (Depending on the flywheel and pressure plate type the lining might not get slung out, but could pile up and prevent the disengagement of the clutch.) If the center hub sheared off from the clutch disc the engine would have turned when the flywheel was turned.

In my mind if the engine doesn't turn when the pressure plate is turned the crank has broken, flywheel to crank bolts sheared, or the pressure plate has come off the flywheel. Having any one of these conditions it doesn't seem the pressure plate would spin, when the engine was running, if the transmission was in gear. The crank break would need to be a straight-line shear, so the interface would allow turning past the two pieces, a jagged or angular shear would turn the engine and drive the transmission.

Given your descriptions it would appear that any way you want to look at this, or we twist it around for you, you need to get your wrenches out. You need a manual to guide you and you need to split the tractor to find and fix what is wrong. Just my thoughts on how I am reading your posts.

 

[used red MN]

I am having difficulty understanding the results of the checking you have done.

The pressure plate is bolted to the flywheel. The flywheel is bolted to the crankshaft. Clutch disc condition aside, turning the pressure plate should turn the flywheel, which will turn the engine. If turning the pressure plate doesn't turn the engine when you pry on it, there is something seriously wrong.

If the friction material on "the stressed side of the lining broke apart when you pushed the clutch and it all slung out of there", as used red MN suggested, the engine still would have turned when you turned the pressure plate. (Depending on the flywheel and pressure plate type the lining might not get slung out, but could pile up and prevent the disengagement of the clutch.) If the center hub sheared off from the clutch disc the engine would have turned when the flywheel was turned.

In my mind if the engine doesn't turn when the pressure plate is turned the crank has broken, flywheel to crank bolts sheared, or the pressure plate has come off the flywheel. Having any one of these conditions it doesn't seem the pressure plate would spin, when the engine was running, if the transmission was in gear. The crank break would need to be a straight-line shear, so the interface would allow turning past the two pieces, a jagged or angular shear would turn the engine and drive the transmission.

Given your descriptions it would appear that any way you want to look at this, or we twist it around for you, you need to get your wrenches out. You need a manual to guide you and you need to split the tractor to find and fix what is wrong. Just my thoughts on how I am reading your posts.

I first started a reply but changed it. My initial thought being he used the term pressure plate to describe the lined clutch disc. Maybe turning in that case was just some movement independent of the pressure plate, when a working clutch is engaged there should be none. If he was moving just the disc, if it is truly in gear he should only have the play in the gear train for movement before the wheels/tractor would want to move. Which scenario he is describing will obviously have to be divulged by him. The “large” screwdriver make me lean more towards he was turning the engine.

 

[rrlund]

Clutch not working . Long 460 set up 4 years , got it running , rotary mowed 12 acres . Mowed more the next day , stopped tractor at idle with mower working . I got back on tractor , depressed the clutch , not working , no grinding . Has anyone had this problem ? I have split my Massey 35 apart , but need information on how to split the Long 460 and what I need to remove .

That's basically a Fiat. Fiat design anyway. I've got the Oliver version. They have an odd clutch set up. The tractor clutch doesn't run against the flywheel, the PTO clutch does. The tractor clutch is inside the pressure plate like the PTO clutch is on most tractors with a two stage clutch.

I can't help you with diagnosing it, but I've put two new clutches in my Oliver over the years. They're not too bad to split. Take off the hood and the sheet metal from the dash. Take off the fuel tank and just lay all the dash stuff up over the engine. I pull the splined steering arm off the steering box with the drag link still attached. I just use a big floor jack under the back half and hang the front up with a cherry picker and roll it ahead. There are just some obvious big bolts that hold the two halves together. It's been a few years, but I don't remember anything being hidden.

 

[Jim.ME]

I first started a reply but changed it. My initial thought being he used the term pressure plate to describe the lined clutch disc. Maybe turning in that case was just some movement independent of the pressure plate, when a working clutch is engaged there should be none. If he was moving just the disc, if it is truly in gear he should only have the play in the gear train for movement before the wheels/tractor would want to move. Which scenario he is describing will obviously have to be divulged by him. The “large” screwdriver make me lean more towards he was turning the engine.

That's basically a Fiat. Fiat design anyway. I've got the Oliver version. They have an odd clutch set up. The tractor clutch doesn't run against the flywheel, the PTO clutch does. The tractor clutch is inside the pressure plate like the PTO clutch is on most tractors with a two stage clutch.

I can't help you with diagnosing it, but I've put two new clutches in my Oliver over the years. They're not too bad to split. Take off the hood and the sheet metal from the dash. Take off the fuel tank and just lay all the dash stuff up over the engine. I pull the splined steering arm off the steering box with the drag link still attached. I just use a big floor jack under the back half and hang the front up with a cherry picker and roll it ahead. There are just some obvious big bolts that hold the two halves together. It's been a few years, but I don't remember anything being hidden.

Good info to have that the clutch disc set up is opposite the ones we are used to. This being the case he might be able to see the disc center hub the shaft is in. If he can see the center hub of the disc (He says he can see the splined shaft), with the transmission boxes in gear he may see the disc hub doesn't turn when he pries on the pressure plate.

It may be the terminology and descriptions he is using but to me, regardless of which disc is against the flywheel, if the engine is not turning when he uses a large screwdriver to turn the pressure plate, he needs to split it. I am trusting he is looking at the fan while prying on the pressure plate in saying the engine isn't turning, yes, that may be an error on my part thinking he knows the difference between the clutch disc and the pressure plate, but I think he does. Maybe it turned the engine and what he really meant to say was that it didn't try to move the tractor when he pried on the pressure plate with the transmissions both in gear (but he said motor). Currently it looks like we are guessing at what is actually being done and the results.

Any way one cuts it, right now it sounds like it needs to be split. If he comes back and tells us he found the throwout bearing hung up and it is holding the traction clutch disengaged, that would be different, may be that he could free up. That condition should show itself as excess free play at the pedal. Just my thoughts

 

[Donald Jones]

If you are using proper terminology the pressure plate will turn, certainly there should be some resistance because you are also turning the engine. However, with the transmission in gear if all is correct it should make the rear tractor wheels turn. But by running the engine and having it in gear and the shaft not spinning already confirms a problem. I believe what happened was when the tractor sat the lined clutch plate was stuck to the metal driving surfaces. The first time you pushed it the lining was slightly pulled from the mounting rivets, possibly cracking the lining material. This only happened to one of the lined sides of the plate. Luckily the other side came unstuck so the clutch would release and you could put it in gear. I think what happened was the stressed side of the lining broke apart when you pushed the clutch and it all slung out of there. Now only one side of the clutch disc has lining on it. It is now to thin for the pressure plate to pinch it to get it to do any driving or turning of the transmission.

Thank you ! I agree because the clutch petal had more free play . I an ordering a repair manual this morning

Good info to have that the clutch disc set up is opposite the ones we are used to. This being the case he might be able to see the disc center hub the shaft is in. If he can see the center hub of the disc (He says he can see the splined shaft), with the transmission boxes in gear he may see the disc hub doesn't turn when he pries on the pressure plate.

It may be the terminology and descriptions he is using but to me, regardless of which disc is against the flywheel, if the engine is not turning when he uses a large screwdriver to turn the pressure plate, he needs to split it. I am trusting he is looking at the fan while prying on the pressure plate in saying the engine isn't turning, yes, that may be an error on my part thinking he knows the difference between the clutch disc and the pressure plate, but I think he does. Maybe it turned the engine and what he really meant to say was that it didn't try to move the tractor when he pried on the pressure plate with the transmissions both in gear (but he said motor). Currently it looks like we are guessing at what is actually being done and the results.

Any way one cuts it, right now it sounds like it needs to be split. If he comes back and tells us he found the throwout bearing hung up and it is holding the traction clutch disengaged, that would be different, may be that he could free up. That condition should show itself as excess free play at the pedal. Just my thoughts

The clutch petal does have extra play and the pressure plate moves very easy showing no pressure on the motor when in both gear shifters in gear . Thank you for your reply ! I ordered a repair manual .

 

[Jim.ME]

Thank you ! I agree because the clutch petal had more free play . I an ordering a repair manual this morning

The clutch petal does have extra play and the pressure plate moves very easy showing no pressure on the motor when in both gear shifters in gear . Thank you for your reply ! I ordered a repair manual .

Rotating the pressure plate should show the engine fan moving whether the transmission is in gear or not. Unless the belt is off or the water pump froze up.

To be clear, are you saying that when you turn the pressure plate several inches (more than just rocking it back and forth) you do not see the engine fan move?

Is the throwout bearing pushed hard into the pressure plate fingers? Can you pry it away?

 

[Donald Jones]

Rotating the pressure plate should show the engine fan moving whether the transmission is in gear or not. Unless the belt is off or the water pump froze up.

To be clear, are you saying that when you turn the pressure plate several inches (more than just rocking it back and forth) you do not see the engine fan move?

Is the throwout bearing pushed hard into the pressure plate fingers? Can you pry it away?

I am not sure of that , I know with the flashlight , I can see 2 throw out bearings move with the clutch petal . I think with age the material on the transmission disc had deteriorated . It is strange that happened when it worked normal at first cranking and during rotary mowing 12 acres with stopping and backing up also . I am in the process of splitting it apart and have ordered a service manual . I am a 75 year old farmer and owned a logging company for over 50 years doing my pwn maintenance and repairs . I know the motor is turning with the pressure plate that is bolted to it , just not a lot of power to work the screwdriver .

 

[used red MN]

Rotating the pressure plate should show the engine fan moving whether the transmission is in gear or not. Unless the belt is off or the water pump froze up.

To be clear, are you saying that when you turn the pressure plate several inches (more than just rocking it back and forth) you do not see the engine fan move?

Is the throwout bearing pushed hard into the pressure plate fingers? Can you pry it away?

If the flywheel is not turning with the engine, the stater gear ring cannot turn the engine. Probably should have put this below Jim’s reply.

 

[Donald Jones]

If the flywheel is not turning with the engine, the stater gear ring cannot turn the engine. Probably should have put this below Jim’s reply.

I was wrong , the motor does turn when moving the pressure plate !

 

[Donald Jones]

I was wrong , the motor does turn when moving the pressure plate !

I found the problem , center rivets cut , no clutch plate movement , will get new clutch plate for the fix , thank every one for helping with this !