Mechanical TA Operation Question

[Bill VA]

Older tractors like my Farmall 350, can you run the tractor in TA for extended periods of time - same as direct?
Plowing or in my case, cutting hay and or baling.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Bill

 

[DeltaRed]

No. They are far different from the newer machanical type.Plus,no compression brakeing on the mechanicals.

 

[D Slater]

Yes as long as you don't let it speed up much if tractor want's to coast faster than gear speed. Steady pull or mostly level ground works best. Slight coast speed over gear speed for short periods is probably okay. Only thing moving more in T/A is the planet gears and T/A clutch disc spinning between the pressure plate and carrier. In T/A the carrier pressure plate and release bearing just sits there and doesn't turn unless the ramp and roller section is failing.

 

[IHWhitney]

Hmmm yes and no it seems! How about the oil for the TA? I've seen posts on this forum say hy-tran? I don't expect to have to take the top cover off the TA to add hy-tran and it looks like it would mix with the gear lube in the differential?

 

[DeltaRed]

300 and up use hytran in the rear end/transmission. 90 wt is too thick.The TA wont peform properly with the thick oil.

 

[IHWhitney]

The farmall 400 book says 80/90?

 

[Kevin Meier]

Hy tran only or equivalent. There was a recall on gear lube years ago. The rollers in the ramp would get stuck due to the thick lube which will cause the ta to wear out and fail

 

[IHWhitney]

Okiedokie, bummer just cleaned all the old gunk out and filled with high quality new 80w.

 

[IHWhitney]

What is the cost on a reman. 400 TA?

 

[used red MN]

Although I realize as KM said there was an update to change the type of recommended fluid to use, the 80w in there is probably does not mean immediate demise of your TA. In fact if you do not use your tractor at temps below 40F I would not worry about it. Now if you are using it especially when you first start it and you go to grab low side and your tractor stops then I would go ahead and change it back to a hydraulic fluid. This probably means you have some west in the ramp and rollers and they just do not grab like they once did. The thinner oil wil probably help that. I am not even a stickler on it needing to be HyTran just as long as it meets the specs. And to add my vote is to use the TA as needed even if it is all day long.

 

[Janicholson]

This is the correct answer. I own on and have owned several with mechanical TA. We use it as needed to go the right speed, or pull the plow/disc with it pulled back as
much as direct. Mine still has the original TA. The manual is incorrect. Originally IH thought it would work with 80-90. it failed in cool weather. They made an
additive to fix the issue, but that was a bandaid that also was mediocre. The IH Hytran fluid is correct in the trans, rear housing are one fill point on the platform
opposite the gear shift. Hytran in the PTO, and Hydraulic system as well. The TA is lubed from the trans not in a separate fill. The PTO is filled by itself and has a
level plug. Off brand fluid is risky. Jim

 

[rustred]

that only applies to winter operation. they cam from the factory with gear oil and my 400 still has gear oil in it.
Untitled URL Link

 

[rustred]

i am sure curious why this question is asked. u would use either 2nd gear or 3rd gear as to your implement. ihc designed this TA so a person does not have to stop and shift gears in a hard pull . myself my tractors have the TA and i have no reason to use it. ihc did not design it as a regular working gear for steady use. and i see their reasoning. dont even know why a person would use it steady 12 hrs in a day. kinda funny the ihc dealer guys always specified this also back then.

 

[rustred]

and as for cutting hay and baling they are ideal for slowing tractor speed in heavy cutting and swaths. only time i use it. but only in the heavy stuff then u shift back to direct.

 

[300guy]

When I first bought my 300 I asked the dealer tech what to use in the transmission as I wanted to change it. He said to use 89-90W as the manual says. So I did and the next fall I was using it to pull a big log up a hill and when the tractor pulled down, I used the TA. I went a short distance and the it made a whirring noise and the tractor stopped moving. It would move in gear but not TA. I ended up that winter having the TA replaced. The heavy fluid caused the sprag clutch rollers to not seat fully and thus taking out the overrunning clutch. Every since I have used NOTHING but Hytran!!!

 

[d282]

IH advertised as Your choice of 10 forward speeds lets you match speed and pull power exactly to job conditions. They would not have advertised ten speeds if it was not meant to be used. My dad and uncle plowed many days in thrid with the TA back- no issues. When they had the 234 picker with the shelller on the 460, the only way they could get through the corn was in first with the TA back. That would be twelve hour days, weeks at a time all using the TA! It is there to be used.

 

[Brendon-KS]

This is a snapshot from the 350 sales brochure . . .

 

[wore out]

THANKS for posting that!

Nothing like getting the FACTS ''straight from the horse's mouth'' vs. ''expert'' opinions!

 

[rustred]

no dought you have 10 speeds, and are using the pull power for the Conditions, nowhere have i seen them advertize using it from morning to night. if i had to be plowing in 3rd with TA back i would be using second gear for all day work. using 3rd with TA back is .2 of a mile per hr. slower than using 2nd gear. i dont get the reasoning to use it steady. i would like to see the actual information to use it as a field gear steady. all it was designed to do was to shift on the fly within 2 gears not stopping to clutch the engine.

 

[mac rusty red 1010]

I have used the ta on my old 350 a lot the only time i hurt it is when I had it in low going down hill....

 

[d282]

Thanks Brendon! That is the info I was referring to.

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 14:27:09 08/24/22) The farmall 400 book says 80/90?

Early 400 books say to use 80/90 because IH still hadn't figured out that the oil was too thick for the proper operation and longevity of the TA. Remember the TA had only been out for ONE YEAR at the time the 400 was released, so there was no real long term information on them.

Later 400 books (90% positive on that), and for sure 450 books, will state to use SAE10 oil with a special additive. Absolutely NOTHING changed mechanically about the tractors except engine displacement.

The SAE10 oil with special additive became "Hy-Tran" with the introduction of the 340-460-560 tractors.

There's no warranty, no modern powershift, no CVT/IVT, no piston hydraulic pumps, to worry about on your tractor, so you do not HAVE to buy "genuine" Hy-Tran if you don't want to. The Premium Universal Tractor Transmission Fluid products that claim to be Hy-Tran compatible/compliant are just fine in your old tractor.

This post was edited by BarnyardEngineering on 08/25/2022 at 05:26 am.

 

[Bill VA]

Thanks for all the replies and info. Much appreciated!!!

Bill

 

[DR. EVIL]

Dad's first TA equipped tractor was a Super M-TA he bought about 1960, I forget the details but the TA did fail, think it lost the low side, right in the middle of spring fieldwork rush. Dealer squeezed it into his shop and we got it back 4-5 days later. The mechanic that worked on it gave Dad a half hour lecture one day on the importance of proper TA adjustment and how often to adjust it. The SM-TA was traded for a 1957 450 spring of 1964. I ran the SM-TA some but several springs it seemed like I LIVED on that 450. One year at the start of spring break from school We had 20 acres of corn stalks disced to sow oats. We had 9 days off. When I went back to school we were ready to plant corn when the soil temp got high enough. WE'D sowed our 40 acres of oats and neighbor's 40 acres. We'd disked everything to be plowed, and plowed everything. Only thing left to do was get the planter out and get it ready, we'd plowed 120+ acres, so one quick disking ahead of planter and time to get the cultivator on the 450. Hard to estimate how many HUNDREDS of times I pulled the TA in that week of running, our ground was hilly, in half mile rows I might pull the TA 4-5 times including the turns on the headlands.
Not sure Why Dad decided to hook his M to our spare IH #8 3-14 plow spring of 1967. I'd finished plowing the last of our old corn ground, 450 with Case 4-14 trailing plow with a Midwest plow harrow. Was a nice 3rd gear load for the 450. Dad had made several rounds in the 20 acres of old alfalfa hay ground with the M & 3-14 IH plow. I drive into that 20 acres of sod, shift 450 into 2nd, pull into the furrow, drop the plow, pull the throttle wide open and the 450 gradually winds up to around 1350-1400 RPM, not the 1450 it should run. In the quarter mile across the field the temp gage went from the top of the COLD range, bottom of the RUN range to absolute TOP of the RUN (GREEN) range. I idled the tractor across the headland to cool it off, it came right down with no load, I shifted back to 3rd, pulled TA back and headed back across the field in low 3rd, 1450 RPM and no over-heating, and I went and hunted up Dad, told him about not being able to pull high side of 2nd but low 3rd was O-K. We swapped tractors, the ONLY time I ever plowed with the '51 M. It had really new 4 M&W Add Power sleeves & Pistons, and I took off across that field of sod in 4th gear, 5+ mph.
Anyhow, YES, 2/10's of a mile per hour can make a REALLY big difference.

 

[Bob 7337]

I always have ran hytran. mainly because had a barrel of it around. Just do yourself a favor and shift it like you mad at it. that way clutch disc in ta dont slip more than needed

 

[D Slater]

Couple of changes made to the T/A units after the SMTA, early 300 and 400. Rear bearing on the planet carrier was made a little less wide and a shim like a Sheild was used between bearing and ramp and rollers and related parts. Before that bearing was open to rollers. Also roller material was changed.

 

[rustred]

that is total b.s. you release it then once u feel the clutch grab u just let it go. it only can engage so fast. do u realize u are slipping the clutch when u are in a heavy pull and just letting it fly forward???, yes thats exactly what is happening. you dont shift gears in your trucks and just pop the clutch as fast as possible.

 

[Bob 7337]

Cluth in ta no differant than main clutch. The more you ride it the more slippage. Wore couple of them old ones and never replaced ta. Got 560 with 8000 hour run hard but still havent touched torque. tractor almost dead

 

[Bob 7337]

Let me add about 3000 of them hours was with 301, but if anything big goes wrong with it boneyard is it next home

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

(quoted from post at 17:43:09 08/25/22) that is total b.s. you release it then once u feel the clutch grab u just let it go. it only can engage so fast. do u realize u are slipping the clutch when u are in a heavy pull and just letting it fly forward???, yes thats exactly what is happening. you dont shift gears in your trucks and just pop the clutch as fast as possible.

What's the difference? Let it fly or let it slip, either way it's still slipping according to your assessment.

And yes, I do just take my foot off the clutch as fast as possible when shifting up through the gears in a standard.

 

[dhermesc]

Agreed.

The big issue with 80/90 weight though was in early spring and late fall plowing when the temps got colder. Summer conditions the 80/90 would be fine. I filled my 350 with 80/90 when I first bought it back
in 1998 because that was what the 300 manual (left over from my dad's stuff) said to use - I didn't have a 350 manual. It was fine in my tractor because I rarely used the TA and never used it in the winter
when it could cause real issues. I changed the 80/90 out about 6 years ago and filled it with a cheaper universal trans hydraulic fluid from Tractor Supply. Its probably not as good as the current hytran
but its probably 50 times better than nondetergent 10W with a can of additive like the original hytran was. I wouldn't the super cheap 303 fluid in the transmission that some places still sell - its
basically the 10W oil without any additive. I do use the cheap 303 oil in the leaky hydraulic system. I've owned the 350 now for 24 years and the TA has never been an issue - its primary use is taking off in
road gear and getting to the tops of hills while pulling a hay wagon in road gear.

 

[rustred]

do what ever blows up ur dress.