MF 165 after new electrics

[JBStyron]

Hey all...thanks again for all the help and advice. Here's the update as of today: Starter wouldn't turn, so now we have installed a new starter, coil and solenoid as well as a new ignition wiring harness.
Good news: Tractor started! Bad news: Now running rough, lots of backfiring and needs choke on to keep running. Some graying white smoke coming from right side of engine at times. When we back off choke and increase throttle, tractor stalls. Have not tried to even shift tractor into gear since it won't stay running when we decrease choke and raise idle. Also, tractor keeps idling even after we turn key off.

Tractor was running well before we had starter/ignition problems.
We think we have everything wired up correctly but are not positive.
We have a 3 prong voltage regulator.
We just replaced the coil to distributor cap wire as of this morning and it didn't help. Also cleaned out the sediment bowl.

No kidding, we have learned more from this tractor than we could have imagined, BUT the manure spreader is getting darn full now and we really need it to run!

 

[Jim.ME]

What is your replacement coil? One for a 12-volt system with a resistor or a 12-volt one that does not require a resistor? If it says on it "No resistor required (or similar), did you bypass or remove the resistor shown in an earlier photo?

Continuing to run with the key off says it is wired wrong somewhere along the way, either a wire in the wrong place or a diode missing from the alternator wiring are my first thoughts.

In all this work you have done, did you loosen and rotate, or otherwise move, the distributor body?

You do not mention have the 165 Operator's manual, which I expect has the wiring diagrams. There is an Operator's Manual for a MF 135, with wiring diagrams, online you can download and save at manualslib. The 135 wiring is close enough to your 165 that it can help you sort through things.

Here is a link to it. Use the green download button at the top right to download it.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/984086/Massey-Ferguson-Mf-135.html#manual

 

[JBStyron]

Thanks Jim. The Coil we purchased came with an
externally mounted resistor. That is the same way that
things were set up before we replaced them. Ours is a
12 volt system.



We didnt mess with the distributor body at all. Just
replaced the wire to the coil.



Have the wiring diagrams, thanks. And think we have
it set up correctly but clearly need to look again.



Would the alternator not work now that we replaced
ignition system? Since we think it was okay before?

 

[MF#1]

Thanks for posting an update. Agree 100% with Jim.ME, there's a wiring issue. I also wonder if the ignition(key) switch is going bad and/or wired incorrectly. As he mentioned a wiring diagram is a must, even from a 135 gas, to track down the problem. An Operators Manual for that tractor is priceless when diagnosing an issue or operating the tractor effectively. Given that the neutral safety switch was deleted there's no telling what else was done, right or wrong. Once you get it ironed out I would highly encourage you to re-wire the safety switch to prevent any future accidents given your grandson is around. If you find that your battery goes dead often then the charging circuit is also in question, lack of a diode or disconnected oil pressure switch, neither should cause your rough running issue though. Follow the wiring diagram focusing on the ignition circuit first may get you headed in the right direction. Take your time and be thorough with all connections, your voltmeter is your friend. I would pop the distributor cap off and look for any corrosion or arcing and also visually check the points, not burned or pitted. Good Luck!

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 12:12:25 01/15/23) Thanks Jim. The Coil we purchased came with an
externally mounted resistor. That is the same way that
things were set up before we replaced them. Ours is a
12 volt system.



We didnt mess with the distributor body at all. Just
replaced the wire to the coil.



Have the wiring diagrams, thanks. And think we have
it set up correctly but clearly need to look again.



Would the alternator not work now that we replaced
ignition system? Since we think it was okay before?

If it was charging before you replaced wiring, it is likely something related the replacement of the wiring. Something missed, wired incorrectly, or incorrect in the harness you installed.

 

[Phil Tibbetts]

Maybe you should look inside the distributor. I had similar problem with my gas powered welder and it was the condenser. don't buy a cheap one from chine, I did and it lasted 1 hour.

 

[Jim.ME]

First, I don't find where you have posted whether your tractor has a Perkins or Continental Gas engine.

Your tractor has an alternator, not a generator?

Now, let's review, including some info from your earlier post:

You have replaced the starter and solenoid.

You have replaced the ignition coil and ballast resistor.

You have replaced the coil to the distributor cap wire.

You said you replaced the ignition wiring harness. What exactly is wired with the ignition wiring harness? Is this a purchased harness, or did you duplicate what was there?

I do not see that you have done a basic tune-up (plugs, points, condenser) and inspected or replaced the distributor cap and rotor. Is this correct?

 

[JBStyron]

Thank you a million times for your help and eye on all this! Correct on all ... the ignition wiring harness that we have is from Brillman #B3033-011. We removed old wiring and have tried to put back as it
was (bypassed NSS). The changes are that the new wiring components came with a joined =l (that's my attempt at a symbol) three prong plug and our key connectors had loosened a bit so we had to push them
back into shape to accept the new plug. Since the lights aren't needed and haven't worked in forever, I bypassed those.

The wiring diagram I am using which is supposed to be for a MF-165, photos of the old set up of wiring before we replaced the ignition wires, and the directions for the Brillman ignition wiring harness are
in photos attached.

Our wiring and existing wiring runs key to ammeter, ammeter to solenoid and ammeter to resistor, then resistor to coil. I'm a little lost since neither the diagram nor Brillman instructions mention the coil
at all.

We have done none of the tune up items listed only because before we rewired it, it was running like a champ so we are pretty sure we messed something up with our electrical repairs.

 

[JBStyron]

Sorry...serial # is SGW 643 0111 70 Not sure Continental or Perkins, sorry.

 

[Jim.ME]

It appears to be a Continental. There appears to be a tag riveted to the block just ahead of the ballast resistor. Carefully clean it and I expect it will ID your engine for certain.

It appears the harness you purchased is limited. It does not have a wire from the ignition terminal of the ignition switch to the ballast resistor shown on the paper.

Generator or alternator? Picture? The wiring drawing you posted is for an externally regulated alternator. A generator or an internally regulated alternator will be different.

Does the key switch operate the starter, or do you have a separate starter button? The neutral safety switch should be connected between either one, and the starter solenoid.

On the back of your ignition switch, are the terminals identified? There could be letters imprinted in the fiber material of the back near each terminal.

 

[Jim.ME]

Here is a very basic wiring diagram. It does not include any charging or accessories at this point as we don't know what you have for a charging system. Wired as drawn it should start and run, with no charging. We need pictures of the generator, or alternator showing connections and the regulator.

If you have loose spade terminals at the back of the ignition switch and you had to twist them around, you may need to replace the switch.

In looking closer at the drawing, you are using, I would say it is for a diesel engine, given it shows no ignition system at all. And as noted it shows an externally regulated alternator.

I am not 100% certain that wiring harness is the right one for your 165. The type of charging system can also change some wire connections.

 

[Boowah]

Hello, I'm glad to see Mr. Jim is helping you. He really helped me get mine going along with other folks on here too. I learned that I don't need my Voltage Regulator because the alternator has a voltage regulator already built in. I was able to get away from all the bad wiring nightmares by removing ALL the wires on the MF 135 3 cylinder gas Perkins and starting over with new wires that I installed one connection, one wire at a time. That put me way ahead of the game. Some of the things I've learned from these men on this site I will share with you in the form of questions:

Have you checked your timing with a timing light?
Do you know if your intake and exhaust valves are set correctly?
Have you checked your plugs for a good spark and gap?
Are you sure the condenser is good? (I changed 2 before I got a good one.) The same for the coil too, does your coil work in the position you have it in or is it made to be installed vertically?

I am certain you will get your 165 going again and look how much more knowledge you will have LOL !!

Good Luck Sir;
Boowah in South Ga.
BTW, Mr. Jim is right...he needs to know what of charging system you have so he can show you the correct wiring procedure.

 

[Boowah]

Your drawing looks exactly like the one I did last year with the only difference being my resistor is between the coil and points.

I don't know if that makes any difference between a gas Perkins and a Continental ?

Boowah

 

[Jim.ME]

(quoted from post at 12:15:10 01/21/23)
Your drawing looks exactly like the one I did last year with the only difference being my resistor is between the coil and points.

I don't know if that makes any difference between a gas Perkins and a Continental ?

Boowah

Nothing to do with what engine. Locating the ballast resistor ahead of the coil as I have shown allows using a resistor bypass circuit as I have shown. A bypass circuit will not work after the coil as yours is wired, you would be putting battery voltage to the points and condenser, bypassing the coil.

 

[JBStyron]

Thank youagain.

Here are some photos of where we are now. Have replaced all the plugs and they are gapped to
specs at.025.

We dont have a way, or the knowledge to check condenser or timing as of now.



Key start, no push button. Have bypassed NSS as shown with green wire connected to yellow
with black wire.



Tractor starts, but wont run for more than a few minutes if left idling.



Again, we have replaced starter, coil (came with attached resistor which we separated and
mounted as shown due to lack of room for it), solenoid, ignition wiring harness, coil to
distributor cap wire and now plugs.



Tractor starts fine, runs rough with choke out, eventually dies as choke is pushed in and still
backfires.



Hope these photos help show what weve done. Mr. Jim, we tried to replicate your wiring
diagram drawing but not sure we got it right.

 

[JBStyron]

Photos too big perhaps, so attaching a couple at a time.

 

[JBStyron]

Photos

 

[MF#1]

Why do you have TWO wires on one end of the ballast resister? Per Jim.ME's EXCELLENT diagram you should have only one. May want to check that out. Keep at it, you're getting close!

 

[Jim.ME]

It looks like you have the wire from the "I" terminal of the starter solenoid going to the wrong end of the resistor for the resistor bypass to work during starting. It needs to go to the coil end of the resistor or right to the coil terminal, as I drew. That will not stop it from starting or running just the bypass won't work and should be corrected. You are going to have to make a sketch of your wiring if we go further. I can only guess you hooked the wires to the ammeter, but I don't know which gauge is which from the picture. The pictures help but You need to be sure the wires are connected to the right terminals of the ignition switch. They should be marked on the back of the switch.

Do you have a 165 manual with the wiring diagram for a Continental gasoline engine with a generator, which is what your tractor has.

The fact that you say it starts and runs for a few minutes now makes me think the wiring is ok, at least for now for now. Don't worry about testing the coil or condenser. However, it sounds like you have a fuel problem. Dies after idling for a few minutes but will stay running if choked until the choke is pushed in sounds like it is starving for gas. Start by holding a pint jar under the carburetor bowl drain. Remove the plug and see how long it takes to fill the jar. You should have a steady flow and fill the jar in a couple minutes. If the flow is good and doesn't taper off, you may have dirt in a jet or passage. Check the settings of the adjusting screws on the carb to see if they are close to the initial settings your manual calls for.

 

[Boowah]

Hello Mr. Jim:
I don't understand what you are saying about the resistor. I'm a retired union Millwright, not an Electrician LOL ! All I know is I burnt up my points quick, and after putting the resistor between the neg side of coil and the points, I haven't had anymore burnt points. I am just saying I respect your experience and appreciate your help.

THANKS!!