MF-165 won't start

[JBStyron]

A month ago, wouldn't start and by moving/checking connections to resistor and coil, started right up. All good until last week, and wouldn't start. Checked and even replaced some of the connectors (had already replaced battery/cables and have tested them and they are fine) but tractor still won't turnover. Only sign of life is when we turn key, fuel gauge needle jumps a little.

I've tried to add a photo...we removed the starter solenoid already.

What we know about ignition systems is NOTHING, but we are trying to learn enough to keep our tractor running since we have zero access to a good tractor mechanic.

Preparing to purchase new starter, coil w/resistor and a starter solenoid from this site, and whatever else you all recommend unless there's something else we can do. Any and all suggestions are really appreciated!

 

[MF#1]

Sounds like you may have two separate issues, one is the ignition wiring and the other is whether the starter will turn over. Before you spend a penny on new parts that you may or may not need do some diagnosing. IF it ran by jiggling some wires then you probably need to chase those wires with an automotive test light to see where the issue may be. You would need to re-install the wiring just like it was before you started taking things apart including the solenoid. Also, have you ruled out the Neutral Safety switch as a problem? If it's getting old you may need to shift the L-S-H lever back and forth a few times to see if it finds the sweet spot. IF that is bad then the starter will NOT turn over...ever. A NEW starter will NOT fix bad ignition wiring. If you have the Operators Manual the wiring diagram will be in it, chase EVERY wire from the ignition switch to the coil, resister, starter BEFORE you decide something needs replacing. Jumping the starter directly to the starter solenoid(in NEUTRAL of course) will let you know if the starter may be bad, given your description I doubt the starter is bad, the solenoid - maybe-. I would bet the neutral switch wiring/ignition wiring needs attention. Good Luck with it!

 

[Dieseltech]

When Delco solenoids need five or ten attempts to start, it's usually the top bat post bolt head worn away inside the cap. I've fixed a lot by removing the cables/wires from the bolt, loosen the thin nut enough to push IN the stud and give it 1/2 turn, then pull it back out. Tighten the nut and replace all wires and cable. The bolt has a square shoulder like a carriage bolt, and giving it a 1/2 turn places the unworn bolt head where the contact washer can strike both bolt heads again. The lower bolt does not wear like the top one does.

 

[da.bees]

What we know about ignition systems is NOTHING, but we are trying to learn enough to keep our tractor running since we have zero access to a good tractor mechanic.

Everyone has to start when they know NOTHING. The FIRST thing you should learn is how to use a multi-meter and/or test light. AFTER you learn to use those you will be all set to learn A LOT more but as long as you continue replacing parts without knowing whether they are bad or not you are spinning you wheels. Test twice,replace once.

 

[used red MN]

Hello JB welcome to YT! It can be a little overwhelming diving into items that are a little unknown. Curious to what extend it means when you say you ..checked.. some wires? Do you have some type of meter or does checking them just mean looking at them. Hopefully you took a picture or wrote down how the wires go back on the parts you removed. I suppose you realize that a wire has been taken of the white resistor block that has the other wire on it going to the coil. The missing wire is needed to power the ignition system. I agree with MF 1 that the neutral safety circuit could be causing your problem. It would probably require or at least be very helpful for you to have a test light or multimeter use to diagnose your problem. Where are you located? There may be a willing member on here that could assist you with your problem.

 

[jt501]

Does you tractor have a neutral safety switch like the 65 does?

 

[JBStyron]

Thanks so much to all for suggestions and help. And we live in Oxford, NC if anyone happens to be nearby...what a great thing that would be!!!

As far as we can tell, we do not have a neutral safety switch on our tractor. At least, we don't have anything that looks like the safety switches that are on this site for sale.

We have a multimeter and are learning how to use it. We have attempted to test and follow our wires and this is what we have: 12 v from battery, 12 v @ end of cable connecting to solenoid, .06 coming out of solenoid with key on, .06 back at ignition, and .06 coming into and out of resistor.

We also disconnected the wires to the headlights which are non working and which we don't use...heck, we're lucky to have our tractor running in the daylight!!!

 

[JBStyron]

We don't think so.

 

[JBStyron]

Thanks, we sent a general reply below, and really appreciate the suggestions. We did reconnect everything and then used a multimeter to try to check where we did and did not have a good current.

 

[JBStyron]

This sounds like it might need to be our next move. Thanks and we will give it a shot!

 

[Bob N.Y.]

It should have. It would be on top of the transmission housing just in front of the battery on the right side. There should be a rubber boot with 2 wires going straight down into it.

 

[Bob N.Y.]

Starter safety switch on MF 165

 

[JBStyron]

Well, your instructions were dead on and I marked the bolt to be sure I did an exact half turn. Still nothing. No turnover, no clicking, nada. Would love to hear if you have other suggestions.

 

[JBStyron]

Awesome. Will look for it first thing in the morning. Can you talk me through how to check/test it?

 

[Bob N.Y.]

Yes.

 

[MF#1]

I think you are on your way to getting it running Now, with everything wired up and connected try the following. With the transmission in NEUTRAL(both shifters) connect a set of jumper cables to your battery. Connect the other end of the black(ground) to a bolt on the engine preferably the starter bolt that keeps the starter on the tractor. Take the red(+) end and TAP the 'bottom' bolt on the solenoid(the one that is connected to the starter field with a small bolt). There will be some sparks but the starter should spin without engaging the flywheel. This will tell you if your starter is at least turning, be sure you ONLY touch the bolt head NOT the starter frame. Now, if it turns, touch BOTH the bolt head AND the skinny long bolt that in your picture has the nut unthreaded halfway. The starter should spin and engage the flywheel AND turn the engine. IF it works then you have eliminated the starter AND solenoid as being bad. IF it doesn't then the starter and/or the solenoid is bad. Report back with results. Take proper precautions, have a fire extinguisher or bucket of water ready just in case.

This post was edited by MF#1 on 01/09/2023 at 06:41 pm.

 

[used red MN]

I do not know if you are viewing in Classic or Modern, in Classic it will show you I am replying to the post that you are giving readings taken with your meter. Hopefully you have the meter instructions and you have it set for DC voltage. You only took two readings that has any meaning or at least that could be taken as an acceptable voltage. That is the reading you gave that reported 12v taken I assume at the battery posts and on the end of the positive battery cable at the starter. After that nothing you gave is a valid result. One thing we need to keep in mind is that the problem could be in any part of the circuit, which means it could be in the positive side of the circuit as well as the negative side of the circuit. In your case that would be the negative battery cable and its connections. So keep in mind the all circuits include anything that is needed to get power to the item that needs it and also completing the circuit on the negative side going back to the battery. A reading of .06 volts is for all practical purposes zero volts. Digital meters can be very sensitive. No terminal on the solenoid will have power with just the key on except one, that circuit has nothing to do with the starter turning the engine. The small terminals on your solenoid should be labeled with an S and an R that terminal is the one I am referring to that has nothing to do with the starter engagement. The wire on the S terminal is the one that should get powered when you turn the key to the start position or push the button however your tractor is equipped. So do a test with the black meter lead on the negative battery cable and the red on the S terminal with the key or button activated what is the reading at the S terminal? Should be near 12. If it is near 12 and nothing happens we need to check the negative side of the circuit. For this place the red lead on the plus battery post and then place the black lead on the round part of starter body itself. Again activate the start switch the meter should stay at 12 volts. If it drops you have a bad connection on one of your negative cable connections or your negative battery cable has a bad internal connection. If your meter read 12v at the S terminal and the check of the negative circuit was good I would proceed to MF 1 s post that he starts with ..If you think you are on your way.. If you DID NOT get a 12 volt reading on the S terminal of the solenoid then you need to find out why the key or button is not powering that wire in the start position. Which could include the neutral safety system as others have mentioned. Also on the solenoid terminal that the battery cable hooks to there should be a smaller but somewhat heavy wire placed on that terminal that runs back up in the dash. At some point when all is correct power from that wire make its way to the ignition switch and when you push the button or turn the key it connects that power back to energize the S terminal to engage the starter. If you did not have 12v at the S terminal when in the crank position then this is the puzzle that needs figured out why it is not being powered.

 

[JBStyron]

We have the skeleton of a starter safety switch, but it has no wires running into it, nor does it have a hood. As far as I know, we have never had one that was connected to anything.

 

[JBStyron]

MF #1...thanks for the directions on how to check our starter. We were able to run the first test you described and our starter did not turn over. We had good connections and a good spark each of the three times we tried, but the starter did not turn over. We are guessing that this means we do in fact need a new starter?

We ordered a new starter, coil and solenoid so we would be covered in case of this, and they are due to arrive tomorrow. Any suggestions for us as we remove the old and replace with the new? The solenoid and coil were cheap enough that we thought we should replace them as well, unless you have a reason we shouldn't.

Cannot thank you enough for your help and advice. Truly you are a great help to us!!!

 

[MF#1]

Since you've got a new starter, solenoid and coil I would replace all three then connect the wiring JUST like it was when it quit. May need a few swear words to get the starter bolts off:-( Earlier the neutral safety switch was in question, since it's not wired up don't worry about it until you get it running again then you can decide if you want to wire it up for safety's sake. Just for giggles when you take the old starter off connect jumper cables as before, ground to the starter frame and either hold the starter on the ground or step on it because it will jump pretty good and with the positive end tap the TOP connector on the solenoid. If nothing then tap the lower one AND the skinny one together, if nothing then you know your starter is bad. If it spins I would keep it for a spare unless you need it for a core charge. Before you install the new starter be sure it has the same number of teeth on the bendix(the part that engages the flywheel) as the old one. Once you have the new stuff connected and you get nothing then follow carefully the procedure that ..used red MN.. posted below, that's an excellent way to test for wiring issues from the key switch to the solenoid and the ignition wiring. Take your time, double check your connections and I think you'll have it running soon. If you get aggravated with it, walk away for an hour or two or a day, do something else, then go back and review your work. These things can be a royal pain in the backside sometimes!