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MF 65

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E

Ed in TN

Member
This message is a reply to an archived post by Dieseltech on July 23, 2017 at 05:29:44.
The original subject was "Re: MF 65".

Interesting....so, I have what is supposed to be a 1959 MF65, with what I thought was the A4.192. The identification plate is missing. It has the pie shaped thing and the straight up injectors. Is there an external way to determine whether I have an A4.192 or an A4.203 indirect? It is for certain purchased in the USA.
 
If it has the pie shaped piece at the back of the oil pan as indicated by the arrow it's a 4.192.
mvphoto30437.jpg
 
Block SHOULD be stamped on the left front or rear corner too with what engine is, 192 is 3.5 bore X 5 stroke, 203 is 3.6 bore X 5 stroke. CL means block has chrome plated liner ID.
 
Thanks..I checked the block. Left side has a casting in central area that says BILCHROME. Behind injection pump is a casting that says 0280095V. Central below BILCHROME is casting that says H229. Upper rear edge has a stamping that says 2801141. That is all I can find. The only other thing I know is that the heat assist unit is a different diameter and thread pattern on the 192 and 203. This tractor does not have the heat assist, but there is a plug in that position...I have no idea what the size and thread differences are...or whether the A203 indirect used the 192 unit or the direct 203 unit.
 
BILCHROME is supposed to be the name of the foundry the block was cast at. The 2801141 number should be the engine serial number, that engine should have the chrome sleeves. Engine serial number 2939036 and up used the cast iron sleeves, the MF parts book shows it to have the wedge behind the oil pan, and the piston should be the 3.6" bore which makes it a 203 (so my info was wrong).
 
Odd, indeed...I did not know that the 203 had an indirect and a direct injection version...I still do not see any data on the 203 indirect
version...excepting what you posted.
 
(quoted from post at 17:21:46 01/25/19) Odd, indeed...I did not know that the 203 had an indirect and a direct injection version...I still do not see any data on the 203 indirect
version...excepting what you posted.
Click to expand...

Been messing with these for years, and I'm still learning things about them like the deal with the wedge at the back of the oil pan. Looks like the 4.192, and 4.203 with idi (injectors straight up/down in the head) had the wedge. While the later direct injection with the injector at an angle in the heads had a one piece oil pan (I guess that's correct?).
From the Perkins 4.192/4.203 service manual for the engine serial number location.

mvphoto30466.jpg
 
YEP....now I see that there are, in fact, major rebuild kits for the a4.203 and the ad4.203. The a4.203 does come with the chrome liners.
 
Looks like you are correct on all counts! I finally found a thread from "Bob in NY" back in 2012 stating exactly what you said. Thanks!
 
The three cylinder Perkins engine also had early indirect and late direct injected versions. I have a 1964 MF 35 with the early diesel, and tractor has the MP transmission. My 1967 135 US has the direct injected engine with MP also. The GB 135 diesel has the late engine, and 8 speed transmission.
 
Yes, they are harder to start cold. Most have a Thermostart intake manifold heater, and if used correctly they will start. Dad years ago had one of the late MF 65 Dieselmatic tractors, had MP and the intake heater on the AD4.203 engine. That tractor started great cold using the Thermostart. As an old MF mechanic I'm still amazed at what US sold here, and what the MF guys have across the pond. Seems the latest features always showed up over there before the US market got them hear.
 
A BIG 10-4 on the balancer! One reason I'd rather have a 175 or 180 over a 165 any day. Dad had a 165 years ago, brother always complained the fender radio didn't last long because tractor and more vibrations than the 180 which had the balancer. I've been thinking of hanging a turbo on one of the 135s I play with. MF and some McCormic tractors have versions of the 152 and 236 diesels with turbos on them.
 
I would add the heat assist, but it requires a fuel line to an atomizer and, of course the electric igniter plug next to the atomizer. I don't have the fuel line...don't even know where it is plumbed from (I'm guessing some sort of fuel tank deal that has a splitting block inline, but I don't know). There is a forum for predominantly UK owners and some over there put a stiff wire around a cotton rag and dip it in diesel...set if afire and hold it in or in front of the air intake (disconnected from air cleaner unit)...they say it works well...ever heard of that??
 
It is possible....it only has about 200 hours on an overhaul, but still could be an issue. I have talked to a few and they seem to have the same
issue with the indirect if it is not equipped with the cold start assist system.
 
I wouldn't bother with that. For best cold weather starts, put in an engine block heater. Most all my diesels have one, plugged in two to three hours engine will start like summer. My TO-35 with the Standard 23C has a block heater, makes a notorious cold hard starting engine start like summer.
 
The block heater should be part number 839071M94 should go into the center freeze plug on the starter side of the engine. Dieseltech should be able to confirm this, I never had to use a block heater, or install one for where I live.
 
Best place for block heaters is Zero Start, I use the online catalog then call O'reilys as they are suppliers for Zero Start. With the catalog number any heater I've wanted has shown up in two or three days max. Probably the same heaters Agco sells, but without the markup. It's ten degrees here in Indiana this morning, headed for minus five to minus ten next week. Everyone stay WARM out there!
 
When it comes to UK built MF 65, the 192 engine had the 2-piece oil pan with the wedge in the rear end. Then, in 1960 they changed to the 203 engine which had a 1-piece oil pan. So, as long as the tractor is UK built, this is as far as I know enough to determine if it has a 192 or a 203 engine.

Then, when it comes to the US built MF 65 as far as I know they only had the 203 engine. And, if the 2-piece oil pan was something used on older engines no matter if it was 192 or 203 engine this way of determining what engine it is will obviously not work.

What can be said 100% sure is that a 192 engine has 3.5 inch bore, and the 203 engine has 3.6 inches.


Bill
 
Hello Ed.

If the injectors are vertical, the engine is an indirect injection engine, and if they are slanted, it is a direct injected engine. In addition, the indirect injected engines have a triangular cover over the pre-chambers, which is located in between the exhaust ports on the head. These covers are fastened with 3 nuts on each little cover.

I have never heard that the 192 engine came as a direct injected engine, but I might be wrong here. If what I said now is correct it means that if the engine has slanted injectors, the engine is a 203 engine, but if it has vertical injectors it can be both.


Bill
 
Hi Bill, I think the experts have this finally sorted out. The 57-58 thru sometime in 1960 had two diesel engine variants...both Perkins:

An indirect injected A4.203 which was used primarily in the US.
An indirect injected A4.192 which was used primarily in UK, and possibly other overseas locations. Called a Mark l in England.

After that the 60-64 models all seemed to have the direct injected AD4.203 (the "D" denoting direct injection). Called a Mark ll in England.

Of course after all these years you can never be certain where a particular tractor may show up!
 
Yep...I was repling to your other msg while you were sending this
one.. Sounds like we got this all sorted out finally!
 
I do believe it was 1963 was when they went to direct injection (the injectors go into the head at an angle). The indirect injection has the injectors that go into the head straight down. It is possible some 65's with the 4.192 made it to the US, I know some of the UK 135's did.
 
I sold my brother years ago a 1962 MF 65 diesel, one of the first to have the MP trans option and it had the AD4.203 late engine. Tractor also has the flat steering wheel, lower foam float seat, clutch and brake pedals like early US 65 had. If I recall dad's 65 Dieselmatic was either a 1963 or 64 model. I've never seen a US 65 that has MP and indirect injected engine, although MF may have built some. I do have a late 35 with MP, and the early indirect A3.152 though.
 
Don't know if this will post, but here is some good data for MF 65 folks:

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2255&context=tractormuseumlit&sei-
redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Dmf%2520diesel%2520matic%2520definition%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D3%26ved%3D0CDo
QFjAC%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fdigitalcommons.unl.edu%252Fcgi%252Fviewcontent.cgi%253Farticle%253D2255%2526context%253Dtractormuseumlit%26ei%3DxdCKU
dPrCcmPrAGSoIHQDQ%26usg%3DAFQjCNHlLpRgBLnV_OFwYqdlz-2yL44AhA#search=%22mf%20diesel%20matic%20definition%22
 
Iv been tinkering around with a MF 50A (Instant reverse) the past few months and have read a lot of your posts. You seam to be pretty familiar with them and I was hoping I could get the opportunity to talk tractors with you. Its my first tractor project and I have zero contacts that are even the slightest bit familiar with these things. If you ever get around to reading this, its never going to be too late to respond. I can be reached at [email protected].
That said, iv watched a countless amount of videos and have learned plenty of lessons the hard way so far but Im still learning. The guy I got the tractor from didnt take care of it. He fried the clutch plates and when he went to get it replaced, it was too much of a liability for the repair shop to put back together for him without making him buy a crapload of other parts. They boxed up the transmission parts, put the tractor back in one piece and it sat in the desert sun the next 10 years till I came along and picked it up for $200.
I got a new clutch pack in the transmission and Im pretty confident in the way its all put together. Filled the center housing with iso 46 and it just kicked into reverse kinda hard but no forward gear. Linkage seams to be engaging properly but I still need to run tachometer tests. I just drained the iso 46 though and am about to throw in the all purpose hydraulic oil its supposed to take to see if that makes any difference but I doubt it will. I also threw in a hydraulic pump and rear pto thinking it was required because I was watching Bundt bears shed assemble his on his MF 135 and I thought it was the same. Not sure if I need to take it out or if I can just leave it in. And if I leave it in, do I need to add extra hydraulic fluid?
Not getting any lift on the front loader either. Got the all purpose fluid in there now. Bought a pressure gauge set to check the pressure on the test port up on the control valve as Im pretty sure the lines are all clear and not Kinked at all even though they are dry rotted to hell. Ill get around to replacing them and Im sure theyll leak a few places under pressure but right now, Im fairly certain I have no pressure.
The backhoe is currently detached and the lines that run to the back for it are plugged at the moment. Thats a whole nother project Ill get to once I get the thing driving and have the front loader working. I know Im gonna have to rebuild that huge cylinder on it that iv heard will be quite a pain to take out.
I also have next to no steering right now. Again, I threw in the iso 46 and need to replace it with the all purpose but idk if that would cause my steering to be as hard as it is. I have pressure but the wheels wont turn and the tie rods are looking pretty sad. Need to replace a few bushings and get it all greased up for sure. Havent torn apart any of the cylinders yet but I figured Id work my way up to that one as well. All of this is foreign to me but iv basically become a YouTube ninja trying to get this job done. Definitely helps knowing there are people out there who actually know what they are doing and are willing to share the knowledge. Anyone who cared to hit me up on this at all, Id be more than willing to listen to any words of advice I can get!
 
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