MF3165 planetary hi-lo?

[Dirtrancher]

Hello,

Back in August I posted that my MF3165 wouldn't move when the clutch was released. Here's the original thread:
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1578791&highlight=

It looked like the clutch may have been the culprit, so I replaced the clutch. This did not solve the problem. Time to look for other causes.

Dieseltech and John Deere D suspected that it might be related to the planetary gear.

Dieseltech was kind enough to post this in the original thread:
"There's a chance the trans rear hi/lo planetary internal gear for lo range has pulled out part way from the carrier as it's pressed in place. When that happens both lo and hi can't fully mesh as needed. I've seen it happen several times as an old MF mechanic. You could also have the diff safety coupling sheared also from a sudden shock load."

I've looked through service manual and the AGCO parts book, but haven't been able to find the parts that were referred to.

Can someone help point out what parts might be involved and where they are located? And if any troubleshooting is possible without pulling the rear axle(s) off?

Thank you so much for your help!

 

[Dieseltech]

The hi/lo planetary is at the back of the transmission. The three gear planetary carrier has the lo range internal ring gear PRESSED/CRIMPED in place. I've
seen it come out of the carrier about 3/8 inch before which will then make BOTH hi and lo range fail to engage completely. Last one I fixed I beat the gear
back in place, staked it, and tack welded it too.

 

[John Deere D]

IF you end up dismantling this component...
VIEW the parts BOOK....it's full of many many needle bearings, etc, etc,.

1963 MF 35 X.... Recent Transmission over haul.

 

[John Deere D]

FYI
1963 MF 35 X
Bob..

 

[John Deere D]

FYI
Quote:
You could also have the diff safety coupling sheared also from a sudden shock load.

See picture of location and of components.
Bob...

 

[Dirtrancher]

Thank you very much for the rapid and detailed replies!

Forgive me, I'm new to working on transmissions and may ask stupid questions.

The main symptom is that the tractor won't move when the clutch is released. When moving the gear levers, it feels like it is finding 1st, 2nd and 3rd. It also seems to be finding forward and reverse.
It's a different story with the hi/lo lever. It feels like it might get part way into high gear but doesn't quite seat in all the way. It doesn't find low gear at all.

Is there any way to check the hi/lo planetary without splitting the tractor? If I remember correctly, the planetary gear is inside the center housing and can be accessed once the lift cover is removed. I suspect there's not enough room to actually remove the planetary shifter fork and planetary assembly.

Is there anything under the transmission cover that is worth looking at?

Thank you again for your help. The closest local mobile mechanic is an hour away and charges an arm and a leg. The more I can do myself, the better.

Cheers!

 

[John Deere D]

REMOVE both portal Inspection plates (Round) on both Right side (starboard) and Left side(port) and pay attention as to
how and what is attached to the HYDRULIC PUMP control valve.
NOTE: Infromation is as per MF 35...MF3165 may be different!??
Bob..

 

[John Deere D]

When you replaced the clutch, did you install clutch assembly as per MF SHOP PROCDEDURE?

When I removed the H/L Planetary from my MF 35 I had to split the Tractor....

I LEFT the Transmision attached to the Engine..

Bob...

 

[Dieseltech]

The trans hi/lo planetary unit can be removed after the lift cover is off, or the trans/diff split is done. Don't remove the shift cover, that gets you
nowhere. Get a service manual BEFORE removing the lift cover, if the roller is not removed first you WILL wreck the hydraulic linkage as it's not the same as early 35/50/65 models three point.

 

[John Deere D]

Dirtrancher, it's your Tractor it's your $$$$'s....

However.....I would pay attention to Dieseltech as per below.BY not following Dieseltech's information as per below,you
shall obtain an education that shall be costly.......

The trans hi/lo planetary unit can be removed after the lift cover is off, or the trans/diff split is done. Don't remove
the shift cover, that gets you nowhere. Get a service manual BEFORE removing the lift cover, if the roller is not
removed first, you WILL wreck the hydraulic linkage as it's not the same as early 35/50/65 models three point.

 

[Dirtrancher]

Thank you again. I really appreciate your help.

I had a mobile mechanic replace the clutch. He's an old-timer with a lot of experience and has worked on some old Masseys before. He said he didn't need to look at my manual. Now that you mention it, it has me a little nervous. I'm not sure if he performed the internal adjustments. I'll ask him. Interesting note, he said it looked like the old clutch disk had fused itself to the flywheel with rust. The pressure plate had been milled down from spinning against the back of the disk.

I love the bracket that Bob made to assist with lifting the cover off, same thing with attaching a trailer jack to the housing. Good stuff!

I'll try to take the lift cover off this weekend. I've done it before with the help of this forum. Getting it off wasn't too bad, but getting it back in with everything lined up was challenging. I'll post an update after I get in there.

Thanks again!

 

[Dieseltech]

The way you describe the hi/lo action is EXACTLY what happens when that lo internal ring gear pops out of place. I've seen it happen a few times as an OLD MF
mechanic, at the dealer I worked for years ago. What happens is the hi/lo shift fork moves the gear sleeve rearward, but can't mesh completely as the ring gear
has moved rearward too. Hi internal teeth can't mesh with the end of the main shaft when the sleeve moves forward, because the out of place sleeve limits the
sleeve forward travel. I had an MF forklift I bought that way, and repaired it WITHOUT removing the lift cover OR a trans/diff case split. I got it apart
through the left side cover since there was no internal hydraulic system that was in the way.

 

[Dirtrancher]

(quoted from post at 12:29:17 10/13/22) The way you describe the hi/lo action is EXACTLY what happens when that lo internal ring gear pops out of place. I've seen it happen a few times as an OLD MF
mechanic, at the dealer I worked for years ago. What happens is the hi/lo shift fork moves the gear sleeve rearward, but can't mesh completely as the ring gear
has moved rearward too. Hi internal teeth can't mesh with the end of the main shaft when the sleeve moves forward, because the out of place sleeve limits the
sleeve forward travel. I had an MF forklift I bought that way, and repaired it WITHOUT removing the lift cover OR a trans/diff case split. I got it apart
through the left side cover since there was no internal hydraulic system that was in the way.

Awesome. Thank you so much DieselTech. I'll give it a try through the side cover before removing the lift cover. I'll post an update when I get to that point.

Bob, thanks for posting all of the great pictures. I can clearly see exactly what I'll be working with. So much better than the blurry parts diagrams on the AGCO site.

Big thanks to both of you.

 

[Dirtrancher]

Dieseltech, you have some serious skills to do all that through the side cover! I gave up trying to work on it through the side cover and removed the lift cover.

I had a hell of a time getting the shift lever off. On mine, the bolt is located on the right side of the shift lever, so it was tough to get a wrench in there. Plus the wire through the bolt head was threaded in a way that made it necessary to cut it to remove. Shift lever is off now.

Now that the shfit lever is off, how do I get to the low internal ring gear? Does the planetary unit slide off (it doesn't feel like it), or do I need to remove the four bolts and disassemble it inside the tractor?

Edit: I removed the four bolts and took the cover off. Not sure where to find the low internal ring gear.

Thank you for your help!

This post was edited by Dirtrancher on 10/22/2022 at 05:07 pm.

 

[Dirtrancher]

Finally identified which part you were referring to. I think everything looks okay on it. The internal gear looks to be in the correct position and feels securely in place. The gear thrust washers appear to be in good shape.

I think I've identified the problem, or at least have the next place to check. I tried shifting between high and low to see how the shaft moved. At first it moved in and out normally, but then the gear shift lever didn't move forward and back smoothly. At times it felt like there was something binding and it wasn't moving the shaft like it should. Then I tried shifting while applying some resistance to the shaft. It felt like something in the linkage gave way and it wouldn't move the shaft in and out at all.

 

[John Deere D]

Remove ....Check the SAFETY INTERLOCK switch IF your Tractor has such a component.

Bob..

 

[John Deere D]

Try as per picture

Bob..

 

[Dirtrancher]

Thank you so much for the replies Bob. And thank you for the pictures, they are extremely helpful.

I'll uncover the tractor this weekend and get back in there. I'm not sure if there's a safety interlock switch. I'll take a look and start disassembling the shifters, and try to get the shift cover off too. Hopefully find something obvious.

Good idea with the Kroil. I'll give the shaft a good spray.

I'll post an update when I get in there.

Thanks again!

 

[Dirtrancher]

Do all of the bolts in the shift cover need to be removed or just the six perimeter bolts?

It looks like the shift cover needs to be lifted off vertically. Does that mean the steering gear housing assembly needs to be removed? And the instrument panel?

The tractor does have a safety interlock switch. There are two wires coming out the top of it that have been cut. It's been like that since I bought the tractor. I'll remove it and see if anything broke off in there.

Thank you again for your help!

 

[John Deere D]

I have NO experience with a cover of that design....
Bob..

 

[Dirtrancher]

(quoted from post at 17:15:29 10/29/22) I have NO experience with a cover of that design....
Bob..

No worries. I'll start pulling parts off, and post an update when I get in there. Might take me bit.

Thanks for checking in. And thank you for your help!

 

[jvin248]

.

Did you find water in the trans?

Water gets passed the shifter boots and rusts the shift rod detent and detent spring and locks the shifters. Also the three point top link boot leaks water when bad.

Fixing those detents you need to pull steering-trans cover and have access like you got to the planetary set at the back.

Bundy Bears YouTube channel has a complete trans teardown that helps a lot.

.

 

[Dirtrancher]

Thank you very much for replying.

There's been a lot of water in there over the years. It was stored outside without boots for a long time (before and after I bought it).

When the problem first started, it felt like it couldn't find hi or low gear. Now it has progressed to where it sounds like something is loose or broken just below the shift lever.

I'll keep working on getting the steering/trans cover off. I got all the bolts cracked this weekend except the steering linkage. The tractor has a loader on it, which makes everything more difficult. I'm thinking of trying to lift the steering housing just a few inches with an engine hoist. Hopefully that will give enough clearance to get the cover off and work on it. I'll watch Bundy Bear's video first. His videos are great. He's such a happy guy.

Thank you again for your help. It is much appreciated!