More problems

[Michaels Dad]

Fixed the front wheel bearing problem. Mowed about 6 acres, put trans in neut. left pto running. Went to put trans back in first gear, it lurched slightly then stopped. Then I had no gears working at all.
Pulled the top cover off, and all I saw were some chips gone on the gear coming from the motor. The chips were on the side next to the motor.
Any idea at what I'm looking at here. Going to have the flywheel ring gear replaced (when funds are available)so will working on the trans at that time be the right time to fix it all. I can get by with the bad ring gear for a while, but obviously I would need the trans to work to work around that situation.
Guess what I'm saying is the possible tranny fix possible with out spliting.

 

[souNdguy]

Without being magic.. no.. you can't remove trans shafts and thus gears without a split.. rear split at that...

soundguy

 

[Michaels Dad]

Forgot to tell you it is a 640.
Are you saying two splits will have to be made?
One for the flywheel and one for the tranny problem?
Are the chipped teeth on that gear causing the problem? If so where is the best place to buy replacement for it, new clutch and pressure plate and any thing else I might need?

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Dean]

Assuming you are speaking of your 640 as in your earlier post, and also assuming that your tractor is not equipped with an ORC:

Leaving the PTO engaged with the mower connected stores a great deal of energy in the mower, which is, in effect, a flywheel.

The PTO is not disconnected from the transmission input shaft by depressing the engine clutch.

As a result, when you put the transmission in gear without disengaging the PTO, you, in effect, jammed it into gear without declutching.

This imparts a large shock load on the transmission probably leading to the failure of the input shaft gear.

You will need to split it to repair it.

Dean

 

[GlenIdaho]

You will have to split the trans from the engine to get to the ring gear and split the trans from the Hyd housing to take the transmission apart. It's difficult to say if the chipped teeth are the source of the problem. To do it right you might as well figure on tearing the trans down to find all the pieces so they don't cause further problems and to inspect all the parts to try to discover what happened. It could be a tooth or two just got tired, but you won't know that until you look. You may need bearings etc. The gears, bearings etc you can get from various Old Ford Parts suppliers. I believe this site sells some, external_link, Walt's, etc. There are many suppliers on the web. Smith's Old Ford Tractors may have some good used parts. I'm sure some of the other gentlmen will have some good info for you. Hope this helps.

 

[Michaels Dad]

Every post helps, at least I have a starting point.

Thanks again

 

[souNdguy]

Do replace the tranny input shaft seal and inspect the clutch when you do the ring gear..

Also.. price the gears out and seals and bearings, and then price out a complete salvage trans. In some cases, if you are replacing many gears, a complet trans from a donor tractor may be cheaper.. or similar price and alot less work.. etc.

Glen gave you ideas for parts.. I'd look at wengers of pa and price a 640 trans.. etc.. just to have the # in mind.

Don't forget that CNH will have many of these parts as well.. YTmag may well carry some of the 4 spd parts too.

Soundguy

 

[Old Ford Mechanic]

Before you go too far i would do some more checking.You said the chips were all on the side toward the engine.Maybe that is wear from shift coupler engaging the gear.Over time the coupler and gear will wear like this.If the tractor made no noise this may not be the problem.The shifter may be worn or the tractor could be hung in 2 gears.In other words the shifter may be worn off and not moving the forks or the tractor may be locked in two gears.All the slots should line up to find neutral.Line the slots up and reinstall the cover with a couple bolts and try it again.Also one chipped gear will not keep it from moving.Unless a peice lodged somewhere and if it did you should have heard noise.

 

[john_Bud]

If you can post a picture of the gears and chips. It sounds like there is more damage than just a "cosmetic" chip. It sounds like you busted off several teeth. If the trans gears are ok, you may have the pinion gear snapped in the differential.

You need to remove the transmission. That means splitting it at the engine and differential housing.

Once you find the parts that are bad, check with John Smith as he usually has parts for 4 speeds and his prices are reasonable. Google John Smith and 8N tractor. You'll get his web page. He is in Illinois and his prices usually include shipping.

jb

 

[Michaels Dad]

Here’s what I’ve done so far:
1.Pulled the shift cover off, (also found signs of water) moved all the things that would move, found nothing suspicious there.
2.Removed the filler plug on the rear end, all I could see was one spider gear and a glimpse of the ring gear.
3. Jacked the rear wheels up and turned them through what I thought were all the gears. Everything turned.
4. Put the trans in neutral, installed the cover and tried turning the wheels. No mater what gear I tried, wheels kept turning.
5. At this point the motor should have kept them from turning, but it didn’t.
Looks like I might have twisted a clutch hub or broke the shaft. If this is right it will be a blessing, because I was going to replace the clutch and pressure plate when I replaced the flywheel ring gear.
Does any of this make sense?
Gear

 

[souNdguy]

If both wheels will turn in the same direction when in gear.. then yeah.. something popped.

Any chance it is a pinion shaft or pinion to trans coupler?

soundguy

 

[Michaels Dad]

Wheels turn in opposite directions when in gear. Lot of growling noise in the clutch area also, it's been noisy there since I bought it.

 

[RodinNS]

That gear won't stop the transmission from working in the condition it's pictured in there, or it shouldn't. There's likely another problem. Mabey a twisted input shaft. That said, I wouldn't try to run it like that... it's a disaster waiting for a place to happen.
Remove the tranny, rip it apart and fix it. follow the service manual for specs. You'll probably want to at least check the bearing preloads and mabey change the bearings while you're in there.... or just pick up another transmission. That will likely be cheaper.

Rod

 

[souNdguy]

In gear and wheels turn opposite directions.

Sounds like you just described the -normal- operation of a differential to me.. IE.. input shaft locked by trans, and one wheel spins one way while the other wheel spins the other way..

Soundguy

 

[Michaels Dad]

Did some more investigating. With the shift cover off I put it in all gears (I think), turned the rear wheels and was able to stop the input shaft from turning. Removed the stop and it turned again. Must be enough oil and friction to turn it.
Now I'm going back to what was mentioned earlier, the coupling to the differential. Something may be sheared there, but still has enough friction to allow the gears in the gearbox turn.
Disassembly is next.
Going to replace ring gear and clutch also. Book says 9", this website says 10". Which is right? I'd like to get the clutch, pressure plate and bearings all at once, but don't know which is right. Also are some better than others. I though I'd read about some pressure plates giving up early. Also best bet for gear type parts.
Help me here, and I'll try to remain silent until I find out what's really up, and that may be a couple of weeks. Got to get back to the city Sunday for a couple of weeks, then I'll be back on it.
Again, thanks for all the input.

 

[john_Bud]

I think the NAA tractors had 9" clutches. The hundred series had 10", except for the 5 speed live pto which had 9".

The cheap clutch discs are just that - cheap. I'd buy a top quality Heavy duty disc. You want full friction width (about 2" wide) not the skinny one that is about 1 1/2" wide. If you can find the parts for the 2000 or 4000 light duty industrial, that will be the one. Or for the 1841 or 4040 or 4140 HD industrial.

You can get the good stuff after market, but you have to be on your toes to avoid getting junk.

If I understand you correctly, the rear axle is jacked up and the wheels are free to spin. You put the trans in each gear and with the clutch down, all the gears spin when you turn the rear wheels. You let your foot off the clutch and the gears still spin - engine does not spin.

Right so far?

Does the gear with the chips also spin? That tells me that the center hub of the clutch may be the issue or the shaft between the gear and the clutch.

I would definitely replace all chipped gears. And get a new shift lever rubber. You have SEVERE water contamination in the picture.

jb

 

[Michaels Dad]

As stated the input gear with the chips will turn with the clutch pedal up. I was able to stop it by putting a wedge against it while turning the rear wheels.
Is the clutch replacement kit listed here (Part No: NDA7563ANC) suitable?
I'm having to leave the tractor and return to my home 300 miles from where it's at. I've made a labor swap with a mobile mechanic to do the work, but I'll be responsible for getting parts, so I want to get things right the first time if possible. His first priority will be to install a new starter ring and clutch.
Yes the water problem will be addressed, when tractor is running again it will be kept in a barn.

 

[Michaels Dad]

Had a neighbor split it open today, and here is what he found:
1. Hub on clutch disc sheared...dodged the bullet here I hope, was going to replace it anyway since he was replacing the flywheel ring gear.
2. Pilot bearing trashed.
3. Clutch turned out to be a 9", 1-3/8", ten spline, not a 10", so I had to reorder the right size.

Don't know why the 9", but as stated before the book said 9" for a 640.

Change the seal on the input shaft and refilled with fresh oil.

One remaining problem (for now). If I need a proof meter drive anyone out there have one. New from the stealer ship is $74...ouch!

Lesson learned. Next time either pee in my pants, or shut everything down and don't leave the PTO running.

Thanks for all the input.