Need Help with 861 ignition/timing

[Big mac@112954]

When I bought this tractor I knew it was going to need work. I drove it home (7 miles) and it seemed to run well. The next day I pulled a bush hog thru 2 acres without a problem. On the third day it would not start. After a good look at the wiring it was evident that who ever did the 12V conversion was not aware of what a good wiring project should look like. I stripped the it clean and replaced the key switch and starter button with 4 pole key switch. The 1 wire alt. was not charging. I had it rebuilt and bought a new battery. The previous owner told me that the tractor had burned up a couple of coils. I bought a tune up kit that had almost every thing. I tested the starter relay. It was a 4 pole and tested ok. Now its all back together and when I try to start it I get back fire thru the exhaust. I set the points at .025 and the distributor was not tight when I tried to start. The unit turned clock ways as far is it could. I moved the distributor back to approx. where it was. It was still backfiring. Where do I go from here? All input is valuable to me and thank you in advance

 

[used red MN]

Sounds like you may have gotten the spark plug wires out of order. Does the distributor cap have 1 on the terminal for spark plug wire #1. From there the plug wires should go 1-2-4-3 around whichever way the distributor turns. If that is right then open the distributor cap turn engine to enable the rotor to point to the number 1 plug wire terminal. Now look in the timing window which I think is viewed though a hole in the flywheel housing. Should see your TDC zero in there or at least the 0 - 10 - 20 marks.

 

[Sean in PA]

I would also revert it to the original neutral safety starter switch in the transmission top cover.

 

[Andy Wickiser]

When I bought this tractor I knew it was going to need work. I drove it home (7 miles) and it seemed to run well. The next day I pulled a bush hog thru 2 acres without a problem. On the third day it would not start. After a good look at the wiring it was evident that who ever did the 12V conversion was not aware of what a good wiring project should look like. I stripped the it clean and replaced the key switch and starter button with 4 pole key switch. The 1 wire alt. was not charging. I had it rebuilt and bought a new battery. The previous owner told me that the tractor had burned up a couple of coils. I bought a tune up kit that had almost every thing. I tested the starter relay. It was a 4 pole and tested ok. Now its all back together and when I try to start it I get back fire thru the exhaust. I set the points at .025 and the distributor was not tight when I tried to start. The unit turned clock ways as far is it could. I moved the distributor back to approx. where it was. It was still backfiring. Where do I go from here? All input is valuable to me and thank you in advance

If it's a 12 Volt conversion and burning up coils make sure the coil is either a true 12 Volt coil or a 6 Volt coil with added ballast resistor.

Below are the instructions for setting or checking the timing. Firing order is 1-2-4-3 and distributor turns clockwise as viewed from above.

 

[Sean in PA]

If it's a 12 Volt conversion and burning up coils make sure the coil is either a true 12 Volt coil or a 6 Volt coil with added ballast resistor.

The ballast resistor is to protect the points, not the coil. The points should burn up long before the coil. So if it has gone through multiple coils because of a lack of a ballast resistor, it should have gone through at least 10 times as many sets of points as coils.

 

[Btzj02]

The ballast resistor is to protect the points, not the coil. The points should burn up long before the coil. So if it has gone through multiple coils because of a lack of a ballast resistor, it should have gone through at least 10 times as many sets of points as coils.

Conventional wisdom is that the Points do not care what the voltage is. Points work fine in 6 volt or 12 volt service. On the other hand if a 6 volt coil is used in a 12 volt service it will over heat due to the increase of Amperage through the coil caused by the increase in voltage.

 

[Sean in PA]

Conventional wisdom is that the Points do not care what the voltage is. Points work fine in 6 volt or 12 volt service. On the other hand if a 6 volt coil is used in a 12 volt service it will over heat due to the increase of Amperage through the coil caused by the increase in voltage.

Believe what you want to believe. The excess arcing from the higher voltage and current pits the contact faces of the points. Yes it will also shorten the life of the coil, but that is usually from 10 or more years down to 2 or 3 years. The points will become pitted to the point they won't have the correct gap much sooner than that.

 

[pomester]

Believe what you want to believe. The excess arcing from the higher voltage and current pits the contact faces of the points. Yes it will also shorten the life of the coil, but that is usually from 10 or more years down to 2 or 3 years. The points will become pitted to the point they won't have the correct gap much sooner than that.

When did Ford change to 12v? Are the 4 cylinder 4000's factory 12v? Same points/condensers from '55 ('53 maybe?) until the change in '65?

Dunno - I've worked on a lot of engines over the last 60 years and am not aware of any differences in the physical composition/differing specifications related to points between 6v and 12v. The same condensers are used across a wide range of engines of differing voltage.

Do have a second hand story from the family farm (after I went out on my own) of a coil exploding on a lift truck that had been converted but no ballast resister installed. Single cylinder Wisconsin AEN with point ignition. Operator sat with their legs straddling the engine looking right at the coil mounted on top the engine a couple feet from their face. No injuries fortunately.

 

[john in la]

There is not a true 12 volt system out there that I am aware of.
Either a ballast resistor reduces the voltage or the coil has extra windings in it to reduce the voltage. (What some call a 12 coil or no resistor needed).
It’s like that on factory installed 12 volt systems or 6 to 12 volt conversions.
The reason some systems use a ballast resistor over a 12 volt coil is so they can bypass the resistor supplying a full 12 volts to the coil during cranking.

So points only see 12 volts during cranking in any system. Providing 12 volts to the points all the time will promote sparks jumping the gap and pitting as the points open and close.

The only 12 volt system ford had before 1965 was the diesel so there was no 12 gas tractors.
Not real familiar with the after 1965 tractors but I believe all of those were 12 volt.

But let’s say one tractor same size model year ect is 12 volt and one is 6 volt. Both would use the same coil points and condenser from the factory. The only difference would be the 12 volt tractor would have a ballast resistor.

 

[Big mac@112954]

Thanks for all the input. I failed to mention that I have replaced points and condensers along with with the coils. I admit that I am a shade tree mechanic and this no spark is beginning to drive me nuts. After reading everything I could on this subject, I went back further and started over.
I pulled all the plugs and the starter. I found top dead center on cylinder #1 (closest to the radiator). I pulled all of the parts in the distributor including the base plate. I found fresh scratches on the tops of the counter weights and located a set screw that had fell down under the plate. After cleaning everything I put it back and replaced the insulator that isolated the brass stud on the distributor
When I checked for spark at the points, I had spark under the mounting plate. I will check that out today

 

[ErnieD]

Thanks for all the input. I failed to mention that I have replaced points and condensers along with with the coils. I admit that I am a shade tree mechanic and this no spark is beginning to drive me nuts. After reading everything I could on this subject, I went back further and started over.
I pulled all the plugs and the starter. I found top dead center on cylinder #1 (closest to the radiator). I pulled all of the parts in the distributor including the base plate. I found fresh scratches on the tops of the counter weights and located a set screw that had fell down under the plate. After cleaning everything I put it back and replaced the insulator that isolated the brass stud on the distributor
When I checked for spark at the points, I had spark under the mounting plate. I will check that out today

You want TDC on compression, not exhaust. Put thumb on spark plug hole to insure you are coming up on compression.

 

[Ultradog MN]

You want TDC on compression, not exhaust. Put thumb on spark plug hole to insure you are coming up on compression.

Learning that fact was a painfull lesson for me when I was 22. Ford 360 pickup engine.
I smoked the starter.
50 years later I haven't forgotten it

 

[Big mac@112954]

I am thank full you guys out there are covering my six. In fact I had the tractor on TDC of the exhaust stroke. I ordered an electric ignition kit. I twill be here Monday. I am keeping all of my old parts just in case I want to bang my head against the wall at a later date. Thanks to all for your input. I will update this thread after I complete the change out.

 

[john in la]

When I checked for spark at the points, I had spark under the mounting plate. I will check that out today

That sounds like a bad ground between the points and the engine block.
If that is the case changing to electronic ignition will do nothing to solve your problem.

 

[Keith Williams]

That sounds like a bad ground between the points and the engine block.
If that is the case changing to electronic ignition will do nothing to solve your problem.

I had that problem! The bolt coming thru the side of the distributor was grounding out.
The insulator on the bolt head inside had deteriorated. I cut a piece out of a plastic applesauce cup (I was using to hold bolts) and drilled a hole for the bolt. Still running strong.
Keith

 

[Big mac@112954]

What can I do to create a good ground. This is now becoming an issue that I will not be done with until I solve the problem. I spent the day going thru the distributor. I replaced the wire that feeds the points and made a new insulator from a piece of gasket material and installed it where the brass stud goes thru the side of the distributor. I pulled the starter and rotated the flywheel until the timing mark was visible in the access hole. Using the rotor as a guide I verified that the distributor cap and plug wires were set to 1,2,4,3 beginning at the radiator. Will continue tomorrow.

 

[john in la]

What can I do to create a good ground.

The first thing you need to do is quit jumping all over the place. Stop everything relax and start from the beginning.

Do you have a ohm meter.
Harbor freight has them for less than $5.

Hook one end of the ohm meter to battery ground.
Turn the motor till the points are open
Touch the other end of meter to points mounting plate. You should show a connection with the ohm meter.
If no connection trace it down to you find a good ground connection.
The point mounting plate
The advance weight
The center shaft
The engine block.
Once you find a good ground work back to the points to clean and get the ground to the points base.

Now that the points have a good ground it is time to start on power side.
With points still open take the wire off coil and check for ground.
You should not have a ground here.

Now take the ohm meter wire off battery and touch one end to wire off coil and one end to points on the side that moves.
You should have a connection here.
This all will tell you the wire from coil to points is good and not grounding out.
Once all this is done we know the distributor is good so far.

Now it is time to check for spark.
Rotate motor till points are closed.
Connect distributor wire back on coil.
With key on open and close points with something plastic as not to cause a short.
A toothpick works well for this.
You should get a spark out of the coil center wire every time you open points.

This concludes the primary circuit.
Post your findings or when you get this far and I will walk you through the secondary circuit.

 

[Eman85]

Get the tractor running good on the points before you try a conversion to EI or you could be more lost than you already are.

 

[Big mac@112954]

Who says you can't treat an old dog new tricks! John in LA , Your step by step instructions did the trick. If you are not already writing books to help people like me "That know just enough to be dangerous" Then you should be. Keith from Ohio was dead on with his advice The brass bolt that goes thru distributor was shorting out the wire coming from the coil. I ran a single wire from the minus side of the coil directly to the points I ended up running a 2nd wire to the plus side of the coil, that was fed from the "I" terminal on the starter relay. She fired right up Thanks to all for your input.

 

[john in la]

You are welcome
Glad I could help

Back in the 70’s when I was in USAF mechanics school we had a week of working on just such problems.
The first part of the week you had to get a motor running and the second part of the week you did things to the motor so it would not run for the next class to fix.
Things like putting clear scotch tape under the points so the points could not ground were common.