No Charge

[wtcoyote]

I again have another electrical problem. I have a 960 Ford high crop with a six volt positive ground system. We to the generator and voltage regulator to the shop. The generator tested OK but had to replace the vr. I still do not get an increase in voltage at the battery when running. I did polarize the generator before starting the tractor. I tried to check the output of the generator and could not get a reading. Could someone help with the proper way to check the voltage output at the generator with a volt meter.

Thanks for any and all help.
Terry

 

[Larry NCKS]

If battery voltage does not change from static to charge voltage with VOM at battery posts and engine running, you've still got charging system problems. New VR could be bad out of the box. Wiring could be faulty. Sure you got it wired correctly?

Full field the generator briefly while running. What happens to voltage when the gen is full fielded?

 

[wtcoyote]

how do I full field the generator and at where do I
check it. At the ampere meter or with my tester?

 

[wtcoyote]

I also double checked all wire termination and I identified each by doing a continuity test on each wire. all checked out as being terminated correctly.

 

[Will Gumbert]

One way to test it would be to connect the voltmeter directly across the battery. Note the voltage, should be about 6.2V or so. Connect a long wire to a good ground, like the battery + terminal. Start the tractor, note the battery voltage again with the engine running at around 1200 rpm. Use your ground wire to ground the case of the regulator. Does the voltage go up? if so, your regulator has a bad ground.
If this is OK, use the ground wire to momentarily ground the field post of the generator. Does the voltage go up now? If so the regulator may be bad.

 

[Larry NCKS]

(quoted from post at 17:19:15 08/29/12) how do I full field the generator and at where do I
check it. At the ampere meter or with my tester?

Get a small jumper wire, preferably one with alligator clips. Attach one end to a good ground such as the battery positive post. Attach the other end to the gen field terminal. Put your VOM across the battery terminals. If this proves out the gen, try removing the clip from gen field and attaching it to ground the VR. Some of these faults are simply poorly grounded regulators as well.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 21:25:40 08/29/12)

(quoted from post at 17:19:15 08/29/12) how do I full field the generator and at where do I
check it. At the ampere meter or with my tester?

Get a small jumper wire, preferably one with alligator clips. Attach one end to a good ground such as the battery positive post. Attach the other end to the gen field terminal. Put your VOM across the battery terminals. If this proves out the gen, try removing the clip from gen field and attaching it to ground the VR. Some of these faults are simply poorly grounded regulators as well.

ill & Larry!!!! What are you two telling this man? He said it is a 960! Not an N tractor. Don't you know that you are telling him to destroy his new regulator??!! Let the buyer beware!!!!

EXTERNALLY SOURCED FIELD!

 

[Larry NCKS]

(quoted from post at 21:10:13 08/29/12) Will & Larry!!!! What are you two telling this man? He said it is a 960! Not an N tractor. Don't you know that you are telling him to destroy his new regulator??!! Let the buyer beware!!!!

EXTERNALLY SOURCED FIELD!

Pray tell! How and why you think this will fry his regulator?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 22:41:57 08/29/12)

(quoted from post at 21:10:13 08/29/12) Will & Larry!!!! What are you two telling this man? He said it is a 960! Not an N tractor. Don't you know that you are telling him to destroy his new regulator??!! Let the buyer beware!!!!

EXTERNALLY SOURCED FIELD!

Pray tell! How and why you think this will fry his regulator?

arry, the 960 has "B"-ckt regulator & generator. If you need further explanation, that means that the generator field coils are grounded inside the generator case and that they are fed/source from the outside FIELD terminal on the generator. They receive power/current from the VR. So, if you ground the generator Field terminal, then the VR is trying to feed into a direct short circuit. The VR point contacts are designed to source about 2 to 4 amperes, NOT a direct short to ground where current is only limited by whatever the wires and contacts can handle before they burn to a crisp. What else do you want to know? I'm here to help.

 

[Larry NCKS]

If that's correct, my source is wrong. I've full fielded a one of these tractors before and it still works. So did I feed the gen field from the A terminal? Or did I disconnect the VR from the gen before doing so? Or both?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 23:19:02 08/29/12) If that's correct, my source is wrong. I've full fielded a one of these tractors before and it still works. So did I feed the gen field from the A terminal? Or did I disconnect the VR from the gen before doing so? Or both?

ou got me.....I wasn't there, but if I have to guess, then I would say that you fed the Field from the ARM terminal. That is reasonable, since that is what the contacts inside the VR do.

 

[Larry NCKS]

I've gone back and reread my source. Here it is:http://www.venselenterprises.com/techtipsfromdick_files/generators.pdf It's either incorrect or you are.

It states that a B circuit generator field is grounded by the regulator, which is what I had in mind. If I'm wrong, it's wrong! I suppose both of us could be, but the next time I get a chance I'll check one of my pre-65 Ford 6V + grounds out to satisfy my own curiosity. Or possibly it's an A circuit system which would, according to my source, have current introduced to the fields in the genny by the regulator. It would aslo be rare, according to this source, for a Ford not to be a B circuit system.

Added 11:30 P.M. CDT. After looking at my Ford Shop manual, I tend to believe my source has it's A & B circuits mixed up. So what you are saying is absolutely correct, which is what I had in mind before reading that thing anyway. Thanks for calling out this error.

Therefore, wcoyote, to full field that thing you need to jumper the gen A term to gen FLD term. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Will Gumbert]

Sorry for the wrong suggestion, I believe JMOR is right. Like Larry, I was basing my suggestion on some information that was not correct for the Ford b-circuit generators. I should have realized that Ford generators are b-circuit and that one side of the field is already grounded. I also just went through this with my own tractor, you would think I had learned....
I hope you didn't damage anything, follow Larry's latest suggestion.

 

[souNdguy]

for the heck of it..

pull belt off, pull all wires off genny.

jump power from bat to field and armature.. does genny motor? if yes.. hook backj up.

start up..

jump power to field.. does bat voltage come up?

no?

jump power to bat and field.

bat power come up?

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 23:40:22 08/29/12) I've gone back and reread my source. Here it is:http://www.venselenterprises.com/techtipsfromdick_files/generators.pdf It's either incorrect or you are.

It states that a B circuit generator field is grounded by the regulator, which is what I had in mind. If I'm wrong, it's wrong! I suppose both of us could be, but the next time I get a chance I'll check one of my pre-65 Ford 6V + grounds out to satisfy my own curiosity. Or possibly it's an A circuit system which would, according to my source, have current introduced to the fields in the genny by the regulator. It would aslo be rare, according to this source, for a Ford not to be a B circuit system.

Added 11:30 P.M. CDT. After looking at my Ford Shop manual, I tend to believe my source has it's A & B circuits mixed up. So what you are saying is absolutely correct, which is what I had in mind before reading that thing anyway. Thanks for calling out this error.

Therefore, wcoyote, to full field that thing you need to jumper the gen A term to gen FLD term. Sorry for the confusion.

Looked at your reference. It is a real shame that stuff with such errors is put out there for the world to mess things up with & cost people time, money & mental anguish! Vensel shouldn't be thanking Randy Rundel, he ought to have admonished him! The section on page 12 "how a cut out works" is NOT correct either.
The word "typically" is used by the writer(s) in speaking of Ford and GM use of "A" and "B" circuit generators. In my lifetime of experience, I have found that generalizations will almost always get one in trouble.

Just FYI, the first 1939 Ford 9Ns used the "B" circuit generator with a VR. Then switched to the use of generators with only a cut out from 1940 all the way up to 1947 when the 8N came on the scene. All those 9ns & 2Ns from 1940 through 1947 used the cut out and as many as 3 different generators. The 8N then used a generator with a VR, BUT unlike the 1939 with a VR and "B" ckt generator, the 8N used an "A" circuit generator & VR generator. Ford tractors continued with this "A" circuit design, although using 4 different generator configurations, throughout the 8N run in 1952. Then, the pendulum swings again! This time Ford goes back to the "B" circuit generators & VR with the introduction of the Jubilee. Best I know, Ford tractors then stayed with some "B" circuit configurations from then until alternators came about.
Nothing in life is simple enough to 'generalize'.
I guess we shouldn't be surprised by the flip-flopping, since Ford seems to have had a hard time with decisions right from the very start.......the Model T used NEGATIVE Ground system/battery. Then Ford switched and from then through 1955 used POSITIVE Ground system/battery. Then in 1956 Ford changed their mind again and went to NEGATIVE Ground system, as they had in the beginning with the Model T. The future is still to come!

 

[Will Gumbert]

Thanks, JMOR for the interesting information, and the historical context. I learned something through this (besides making sure I know what I'm talking about before I give advice).
Not that it justifies my mistake, but I had been reading the article, on this site, about 2-brush generators before i posted that suggestion. In it, the author describes the earlier 3-brush gen and then the newer 2-brush design. One statement was as follows:
"The two-brush generator was created by simply taking the wire coming from the field coils that would normally connect to the third-brush and connecting it directly to the wire coming from the brush on the output or A side brush (for this reason, it is called a shunt generator). By manipulating the ground on the field terminal side with relay-operated points, current would flow at full charge or not at all in rapid cycles." I believe this means he is describing an A-Circuit generator.
And later..." A quick test to see if the generator is at fault is to jumper the field terminal directly to ground. If your charging rate jumps, your generator is probably good (note, one minor complication to this simple test is if your cutout relay points don't close, the charge rate still won't jump even with a good generator, remove the cover of the regulator to make sure)."
If i had kept in mind he was talking about the other type, maybe I wouldn't have put my foot in...
So, i apologize again, will try to be more careful in the future. -Will

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 17:37:52 08/30/12) Thanks, JMOR for the interesting information, and the historical context. I learned something through this (besides making sure I know what I'm talking about before I give advice).
Not that it justifies my mistake, but I had been reading the article, on this site, about 2-brush generators before i posted that suggestion. In it, the author describes the earlier 3-brush gen and then the newer 2-brush design. One statement was as follows:
"The two-brush generator was created by simply taking the wire coming from the field coils that would normally connect to the third-brush and connecting it directly to the wire coming from the brush on the output or A side brush (for this reason, it is called a shunt generator). By manipulating the ground on the field terminal side with relay-operated points, current would flow at full charge or not at all in rapid cycles." I believe this means he is describing an A-Circuit generator.
And later..." A quick test to see if the generator is at fault is to jumper the field terminal directly to ground. If your charging rate jumps, your generator is probably good (note, one minor complication to this simple test is if your cutout relay points don't close, the charge rate still won't jump even with a good generator, remove the cover of the regulator to make sure)."
If i had kept in mind he was talking about the other type, maybe I wouldn't have put my foot in...
So, i apologize again, will try to be more careful in the future. -Will

ill, I'm not a participant here to kick any one around or embarrass them. Only to try to help & educate. When improper advice is presented, it would be a disservice to all others to fail to point that out.
The more everyone learns, the better for all of us. I'm still learning, too.

 

[wtcoyote]

I agree, I had all this advice, some good some not
so good but it gave me a starting point to do some
research which led me to a means to trouble shoot
and find the problem of which I had no Idea as where
to start in the first place. Again thanks to all as
this was a good learning experience. Good and bad
advice led to learning!
Thanks,
Terry