No spark problems kinda long story

[reddog848]

49 model 8N front mount 4 nipple dizzy, 6 volt pos grd. Tractor has been "farmerized" with the wiring harness, nothing matches color wise. Had old pass thru type amp meter that did not work and no ign switch. PO just shorted the wires together to start it. I replaced that with a push pull switch and all was good. Then I replaced the old amp meter with a new 2 post type, I made a terrible mistake of cutting all the wiring loose from the terminal board with the resister in it without marking where each one was located. I evidently connected a couple of them wrong. Jmor and the F04 got me fixed on that and I put it all back as he and the book described. Now I have NO fire at the plugs, grounded one to a known ground source and NO fire at all. Did all the dizzy checks listed here in other checks and NO help there, still NO fire. Jmor suggested shorting across the resister on the terminal block but I already have the dizzy off for the other checks. My question to anyone than might help......WHAT NOW??? I DON'T WANT TO THROW PARTS ON JUST FOR FUN. It does seem like that IS the last resort but I need help before putting it all back together for nothing. I already have ordered new harness, point , condenser, cap and coil but not a dizzy from this site, should I get a new dizzy from Ford (closest is 40 miles) or the land of almost right (TSC) just to eliminate the possibility of a bad dizzy or condenser?
Thanks all of you that offer help and to Jmor especially for all the time he devoted to trying to help me.

Fred

 

[G6 at Snook, TX]

Frankly, if the wiring is still a bit of rats nest from the po I would plunk down the $25 or so dollars and invest in a new wiring harness. The other advice I can give is that if there is a choice between New Holland parts and TSC, I would choose New Holland every day of the week.

Others can help on specific frontmount trouble shooting.

 

[souNdguy]

you need to see if you are getting power to the coil.

put the dizzy back on once you are thru poking it... then check power thru the key, thru the resistor to the coil.

post back.

soundguy

 

[Bruce (VA)]

You have a "TARFU" problem w/ the tractor. (think of SNAFU.....Things Are Really F'd Up)

Check out tip # 42.

Your tractor was so bad off that trying to replace or repair one little problem got you nothing.

Don't get discouraged & do NOT start throwing parts at it.....like a distributor.

You need a terminal block w/ a resistor as well as a new ignition switch & rotor in addition to the parts you have already ordered. A new battery cable & strap would also be appropriate if you can't remember the last time you replaced them.

Do NOT buy ignition parts from TSC. NAPA, Ford, this site or nnalert's are always better choices.

Take it one step at a time. Clean all the grounds.

Rewire the tractor w/ the new harness, ignition switch & terminal block. (HINT: remove the breather & tool box before you start).

Once you get it wired (use JMOR's diagram) then make sure your advance weights & bushings are ok in the distributor. Then, put the new points & condenser in & set the timing. Do the continuity checks on the distributor & put it back on the tractor.

Post back w/ more questions or results.
50 Tips

 

[reddog848]

Bruce I have done all of the things you mentioned. New 6 volt battery, braided grd strap, 2.0 batt cable, cleaned all connections. checked for fire at dizzy before removal, from both sides of resister, all good there. I have voltage every place that I can check but have NO spark at plugs. Tractor ran perfect before I cut the terminal wires loose and removed the block. I even put another regular 2 ohm resister on when I replaced/removed the terminal block wires and block. It ran/started good and I thought all was OK but I could not turn it off because of the miss-wiring. Also the new amp meter worked when I did that but now it does not show anything while trying to start it.

Fred

 

[Bruce (VA)]

I'm getting confused by your references to a 2 ohm resistor.

It's a 6v frontmount.

All it needs is the OEM ballast resistor. Do you have another or additional resistor in-line?

What is the voltage at the top of the coil w/ the points open & w/ the points closed?
50 Tips

 

[reddog848]

No Bruce, I don't have another resister in line. I simply substituted the other resister when I removed the old one mtd on the terminal block. I have/had 6.34 volts at the dizzy top terminal with switch on and points open and I forget now but less volts when closed. I did these checks while dizzy was on tractor I also checked the voltage from both sides or ballast resister before removal. As I said ...it all looked good but no fire to plugs. I think and hope we ar talking about the same thing as to the ballast resistor, I assumed that it is the one on the terminal block,correct??

Fred

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Yes, the OEM ballast resistor is on top of the terminal block & that is all you need. Nothing else.

You have the correct voltage to the top of the coil w/ the points open.

So, the problem is in the distributor.

Assuming that the bushings & advance weights are ok, & that you have correct voltage to the coil (and you do), the most common electrical failure (no spark, weak spark) points on the frontmount are:

1. The insulator under the brass concave head screw.

2. The insulator at the end of the points where the copper strip attaches.

3. The copper strip is broken or grounded to the plate.

4. The condenser wire grounding.

5. The pigtail/tab not making contact.

6. Incorrect positioning of the spring clip on the plate causing the pigtail to ground.

7. Incorrect seating of the coil on the distributor due to a loose bail or no gasket; the coil must not move at all.

8. Water/moisture inside the cap due to gasket failure or the absence of a gasket.

9. Dirty/corroded/incorrectly gapped points

10. Burned rotor, cracked/carbon tracked cap.

Unless the coil is cracked or shows a dead short, chances are it's fine; square coils rarely fail cold. Pull the distributor & do a continuity check.

First, make sure your meter/light works (don't ask....)

Next, dress the points by running a piece of card stock or brown paper bag through them. New points sometimes have an anti-corrosive dielectric coating on them & old points can corrode or pick up grease from a dirty feeler gauge or excessive cam lubricant. Then, check the gap at .015 on all 4 lobes.

Now, follow these steps:

1. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other on both sides of the open points. On the side closest to the cam, you should have continuity. Not on the other side! If you do, you will also have continuity everywhere because the points are grounded.

2. Coil off, cap off, points open. One probe on the brass screw & the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity! Now, rotate the tang on the distributor....as the points open & close, you have continuity (closed) and lose it when they open.

3. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other on the cam side of the open points. You should have continuity!

4. Coil on, cap off, points open. One probe on the lead on the top of the coil, the other anywhere on the body of the distributor. You should have no continuity!


At this point, I just put the distributor, coil & cap all back on the tractor as a unit (it’s easier to do this from the left side). The reason I do this is because it is real easy to get the cap or coil mis-aligned trying to put it back together one piece at a time & the result is something gets broken or you get a ‘no spark’ problem.

Yea, I'll bet you've done this before. Probably more than once. Well, time to do it again! 6.34 volts in, 0 volts out.....the problem is in the distributor!

Post back w/ results & any other questions.

 

[souNdguy]

recheck volts at top of coil points open and close and post value.

soundguy

 

[reddog848]

(reply to post at 16:42:31 08/18/10)

Please guys,I don't mean to bother any of you with all this but I am lost here. I HAVE done all those things as per your post (cap on and cap off) not just a while ago but 3 times today. Everything you all have told me I have done 3 to 5 or 6 times in the last 2 days! I have a background in electronics and I have all kinds of test equipment here, both analog and digital meters, several of each and have checked them against each other. I am not trying to be a smart Alec by telling you my background just trying to let you know I have some knowledge as to how to do what you guys are telling me to do. One of the first things I asked Jmor was where to find your post about testing with cap on and off. Nothing seems to be working. The other thing that is strange is that now the amp meter shows no movement at all. AGAIN, I'm just at a loss as to how to get it to fire again. If I didn't need to use the tractor I wouldn't be so crazy with this stuff. Any other suggestions other than quit bothering ya'll???

Fred

 

[lha]

I got a point set from CNH and they were made in taiwan,but work well at present time.The others are correct in that TSC is not the place to buy points.---lha

 

[Bruce (VA)]

You're not bothering me. when you do, I'll stop responding.

" The other thing that is strange is that now the amp meter shows no movement at all." The ammeter has one wire in, one wire out. It either works or it doesn't. If the ammeter is connected correctly & it works, the needle should dip every time the points open & close. If it's not moving......you have a short in the distributor.

Is the distributor back on the tractor?

 

[reddog848]

No it's not back on yet, I just did a bench test that Jmor told me about. battery thru a resister and to coil and to high voltage term on coil,check for small spark at points, I got nothing. Bruce I have checked and re-checked for a short in the dizzy, everything tests perfect, no shorts anywhere and I checked that I had continuity with points closed,Cleaned them again anyway with a dollar bill and with a paper bag. Makes me believe either the coil or the condenser is bad but again I'm lost.

Fred

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:23:49 08/18/10)
No it's not back on yet, I just did a bench test that Jmor told me about. battery thru a resister and to coil and to high voltage term on coil,check for small spark at points, I got nothing. Bruce I have checked and re-checked for a short in the dizzy, everything tests perfect, no shorts anywhere and I checked that I had continuity with points closed,Cleaned them again anyway with a dollar bill and with a paper bag. Makes me believe either the coil or the condenser is bad but again I'm lost.

Fred

"I checked that I had continuity with points closed,Cleaned them again anyway with a dollar bill and "

Do the other half: make sure continuity is lost when points open.

 

[reddog848]

Did that too! There is just nothing there no matter what!

Fred

 

[Bruce (VA)]

The coil would have to have a dead short to flunk the continuity tests I sent you.

And it's not the condenser either.

Wiggle stuff while you're doing the tests. That insulator is paper. It's very easy to touch the pig tail to the plate retainer clip. Etc, etc, etc.

Not to be a [email protected] once you get the distributor on the tractor, are you checking for spark by turning the engine over & looking at a spark plug grounded to the head/exhaust manifold?

Reason I ask.....some folks don't understand the HV 'connection' between the rotor & cap.

 

[Devious]

I have been reading this and have not seen any mention of the ROTOR I went to two of my dizzy stacks I have here on my desk and found one that the rotor will just sit motionless as the shaft turns and another that the notch on the shaft/rotor fits very snug and no problem. I know this sounds really funky and amatuerish on my part but if the rotor is not right Mama ain t right as the old saying goes. Just another thought Dell!! Sheeesh!! He might have the rotor in his pocket Devious

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Do the continuity checks one more time; assuming they pass, put it back on the tractor.

Then post back & tell us what the voltage is at the top of the coil w/ the points open & points closed.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 14:39:06 08/18/10)
Did that too! There is just nothing there no matter what!

Fred

K, remove the resistor in my picture & replace it with a 6v light bulb (car, flashlight, lantern bulb), then when you turn distributor shaft, does the light #1 remain on, #2 blink, #3 never light?

 

[Paul in Edmonton]

I hate to add a stupid question, but...

How are you checking for spark?

Last weekend I was doing the same thing, and instead of pulling the plug to check for spark, I put an old plug on the wire and held it to ground--no spark. But when I pulled the actual plug from the block, it did have spark. Took me a few minutes to figure out why--but it seems that the old plug was bad. (I tried again with another old plug from the same set, and it worked fine.)

I suppose you've checked your plug wires to make sure they're good...

-Paul

 

[reddog848]

Hey Jmor, you didn't say anything about that wire being bolted to distributor!! OK now I'll do it again and see what happens. Yes Paul the rotor fits perfect and is in the dizzy,not in my pocket.LOL

Fred

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 15:39:34 08/18/10)
Hey Jmor, you didn't say anything about that wire being bolted to distributor!! OK now I'll do it again and see what happens. Yes Paul the rotor fits perfect and is in the dizzy,not in my pocket.LOL

Fred

y bad! Picture detail wasn't good enough. Sorry

 

[reddog848]

Yes Bruce, I grounded it to the ground strap to to block, bright, shiny, and clean. Also tried 4 different plugs.

Fred

 

[reddog848]

I FOUND IT!!!
You guys will have to add a new tip to the 50 tips from Bruce!! :idea:
I did all the checks, especially from Jmor and Bruce but thanks to you all for the help.
Here is the resolution to a mystery problem that none of us could seem to solve. Ballast resister terminal block was the original one (51 years old) and as with all metal corrosion takes a toll on it. After pulling what little hair I have out I took all the terminals loose, especially the resister, unbelievable how much corrosion and simple rust was under the terminals, I wire brushed them all and replaced the screws and nuts with new ones and did the same with the common terminal at the bottom of the block. Re-connected all the wires as per Jmors diagram, re-checked all voltages, turned on fuel pulled the ign switch, hit the starter and Had the most beautiful blue spark you could imagine and was running on only 3 cylinders cause I just wanted to check the voltages and spark. But it ran like a dream especially when I put the 4th plug back on. It is charging at about 6 to 8 amps and starts on about the 2cd revolution of starter. I'm so happy I could fly!!
Again, thank you all from the bottom of my heart and God bless you in all you do!

Fred