no spark

[shane12970]

I have a 51 or 52 8n . It was running good, then she stopped. I got off checked fuel good flow.It was good. Checked spark nothing. whats next step. I was a machine tech. before i got hurt. so Im Mechanically inclined. But dont Know much about Gas motors. It looks like the points are bad but dont know. whats next chck i need to do. also it was converted to 12 volts. Thanks every one. The starter spins good and battery is fully charged.

 

[souNdguy]

no spark.. points look bad.

clean and gap points.

make sure you have power at the primary of the coil with key on.

points gap at .025

you can put a test lamp inline ( series ) with the coil and run her over. lamp should blink

if no lamp.. check power to coil thru switch.. or that points close.

if stays on. chek that the points DO open, and that the feedthru insulator onthe side of the dizzy is not letting the conductor short to the case.. or that the copper strip to the points is not shorted to the case.

post back

 

[old]

Carefully with the ignition turned on open the points by hand. If you do it wrong you will jump because you will get zapped. You should both see and hear a spark when you do that or if you want the safe way unhook the distributor side coil wire and touch it back on and off a few times with the ignition on. You should get a spark if the points are good and not dirty

 

[Bruce (VA)]

If you clean & gap the points as soundguy suggested & still don't have spark, the insulator on the side of the distributor is, as he said, a very common failure point on sidemounts, along w/ the attached copper strip. It's hard to find a short there because it is usually an intermittent . So 'wiggle' the insulator & the copper strip a bit when you are doing your checking. If you find the short there, the Master Parts catalog lists everything you need on page 154. You can make the strip and you could also make the insulators as well. But, somethings are just easier & in the long run cheaper to buy. Get the strip, 12209, screw 350032-S, 12233 bushing & 12234 insulator & just replace it all.

Post back w/ results; I'll be interested in what the problem was.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

came up huge storm so will do it monday Thanks...

(Part No: APN12000ABSR) would this have everything in it


http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Ford-8N_Ignition-Kit-With-Rotor-Front-Mount-Distributor_APN12000ABSR.html

this is link.

 

[shane12970]

reason i ask is im almost positive the points are worn.. everything else has been...lol

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" would this have everything in it"

Yes.....if your tractor has a front distributor. If your 8N is indeed a 51 or 52 as you said, this is the wrong kit.

A 51 or 52 8N has a side distributor.

Which do you have?

You can file those points & re-set the gap & get it running...but you will need to keep filing the points once you do that.

Easier to just get new points. Bluestreak are the best option.

And, you might just as well get the rotor, cap & condenser while you're at it.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

Mine is side. i must have looked at the parts wrong. I have either a napa or car quest can some one post the part numbers.Or should i order from here?
I puth the part number sugested in the product search and nothing came up. am i doing something wrong?
by serial number i was told on here it was a 51 .thanks guys. I got another question this one should be easy tho.
1 turn on key
2 power to coil
3 coil to wire on dist,
4 power to points
4 power from dist. to plugs? is that correct?

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" I have either a napa or car quest can some one post the part numbers.Or should i order from here?"

All of my NAPA numbers are listed below.

Ordering here would support our host of this site.

" 4 power from dist. to plugs? is that correct? "

Not really.

You are correct up until you get to the points.

The reason is that there are 2 circuits in the distributor. The points act as an off/on switch for the secondary circuit.

The circuit you just described is the primary circuit & that carries battery voltage.

The other circuit is the secondary circuit; it goes from the large wire in the center of the coil to the middle of the cap, to the spring on the rotor to the blade on the rotor, then it jumps the gap from the tip of the rotor blade to the t1ts inside the cap then to the plug wires & plugs. That circuit carries about 22kv or so.

So.......

Battery on, points open, check for battery voltage across the points.

The only way shade-tree way to check the secondary circuit is w/ a plug tester or old spark plug.





NAPA & Other Parts Numbers as of 7/2/14 from Bruce (VA), Bob, Jock (OR) & many others
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAPA Ford Tractor Part Numbers:
Front Mount distributor...
Points:
NAPA #CS35
Standard Ignition Blue Streak #FD-6769X (Premium)

Condensor:
NAPA #FA200
Standard Ignition #FD-71

Rotor:
NAPA #FA300
Standard Ignition #FD-104

Distributor Cap:
NAPA #FA350
Standard Ignition #FD-126

Coil IC670 (supposedly 6v, but check resistance or ask)

OEM style ballast resistor ICR40

Solenoid ECH ST540

Side-Mount Distributor:
Points:
NAPA #CS749
NAPA HEAVY DUTY PIERCED (ventilated) #CS753
Standard Ignition #FD-8081
Standard Ignition Blue Streak #FD-8081X (Premium)

Condensor:
NAPA #FA66
Standard Ignition #FD-75
Standard Ignition Blue Streak #FD75X (Premium)

Rotor:
NAPA #FA67
Standard Ignition #FD-108

Distributor Cap:
NAPA #FA352
Standard Ignition #FD-128

6 volt coil IC7 ($48)

6 volt voltage regulator VR950

6 volt coil IC7SB ($23)

Neoprene front seal (replaces rope seal) #550199

12 volt coil, no resistor needed: IC14SB

Water Pump WP 598171

Plug wires (make your own):
7mm wire core ignition wire is Belden 734803.
7mm Terminal, distributor end with two wings is Belden 727008.
7mm Terminal, "snap lock" 90 degree for spark plug end is Belden 727006.
7mm Terminal, "snap lock" straight for spark plug end is Belden 727005.

Misc:
GL-1 90w Mineral Oil
Napa Part# 65-205

8N Oil Filter
Napa# FIL-1010
Wix #51010
NAA Oil Filter
Napa# FIL-1004

Cyclone top mounted pre-cleaner gasket
Napa Victory# G26410
Fel-Pro# 11528

Steering Sector Oil Seals
NAPA Part Number – 11055

Sediment bowl neoprene gaskets
NAPA/Balkamp "O-ring" p/n 730-9506

Marvel Shebler Carb. Rebuild Kit
NAPA KIT #2-1401

8N Head Gasket
NAPA# NGA-1950

Welch (“Freeze”) plugs, CNH & Ford p/n 353454-S, 1-3/16” NAPA 219-1021. Clevite # 381-1021 Plug behind cam shaft, 91a-6266, is 2-1/16"

4 brass nuts for exhaust manifold: 7/16-20 x 5/8, NAPA part number STN104X.

4 brass nuts for exhaust manifold: 7/16-20 x 5/8, pack of 10 from Fastenal (less than $8) part number 1175115

4 studs for exhaust manifold: 1-5/8 long 7/16-14. NAPA part number for a 1 ¾” stud (Handi-Pack item) is RFD 86644. (stud is longer than OEM so make sure it does not bottom out in the block) The 2” stud is p/n 86632 which I have also used.

Spindle thrust bearing, 9N 3123B: T-126 (Timken)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fel Pro Gaskets for N’s, from Bob:
Head Gasket 7277B
Head Set HS7277B
Full Set FS7277B
Manifold Set, Intake & Exhaust MS8782B
Oil Pan Set OS 2916D
Valve Cover Set VS2976
Timing Cover Set TCS 2921
Carb Mounting 8783
--------------------------------------------------
Chicago Rawhide/SKF part numbers, available though many auto supply stores. (info from Bob)


SEALS
Governor seal # 3683
PTO shaft seal # 16189
PTO shaft seal Speedi-Sleeve # 99162
Transmission input shaft seal # 13568
Transmission input shaft seal Speedi-Sleeve #99138
Outer Rear Wheel Seal 9N, 2N # 23756
Outer Rear Wheel Seal 8N though S.N. 486752, # 24986
Outer Rear Wheel Seal 8N from S.N. 486753, # 27426
Inner rear Wheel Seal 8N # 19831


--------------------------------------------------
BEARINGS
Front Wheel Inner, # BR15118 Cone, # 15250-X Cup
Front Wheel Outer, # BR09074 Cone, #BR09196 Cup
Clutch Pilot Bearing, # 6203-2ZJ (SKF brand)
Complete throwout bearing/carrier assembly, # N1425
Throwout bearing only, # N1087
Throwout bearing only, regreasable, # N1167
Differential side bearings, # BR3984 cone, # BR3920 cup
Pinion bearing, front and rear, # BR53176 cone, # BR53375 cup
Rear differential pilot bearing (straight roller bearing) # RS5305-W
Transmission countershaft bearings, # BR25877 cone, # BR25820 cup
Federal Mogul – National throwout bearing: 2065 (bearing only)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


More Bearing Numbers:
Inner bearing, CNH 86609936 Timken 15118
Inner race CNH 86577043 Timken 15250X
Outer Bearing CNH 86576860 Timken 09074
Outer race CNH 72063 Timken 09196


TSC Sediment Bowl cork gasket & screen 0237144
front wheel dust seal p/n: 9N-1190B. NCA-1190 ...or... National 471316
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.

T-stats (180*) :

Beck/Arnley------- 13518

CARQUEST -------- 31177

Gates -------------- 33108

Gates Canada --- 33108

NAPA -------------- 184
CNH A-B2NN8575A – Thermostat
A&I A-11C15

Fan belts
Front distributor, 45” x 5/8”
Side distributor, 41.5” x 5/8” Gates Hi Power II # B39

Ignition switch: Echlin ECH KS6180 (better than OEM; higher power rating.)
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

Thanks Bruce . i put that in my tractor folder...lol

 

[shane12970]

Heres what i got. Primary wire to coil 12 colts.. wire from coil to distributor 0 volts with switch on and when cranking... big coil wire in middle o volts when cranking. Thsts the main coil wire that looks like spark plug wire.Coil Bad or did i do something wrong.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" Coil Bad or did i do something wrong. "

You must have misunderstood what I said earlier:

" The other circuit is the secondary circuit; it goes from the large wire in the center of the coil to the middle of the cap, to the spring on the rotor to the blade on the rotor, then it jumps the gap from the tip of the rotor blade to the t1ts inside the cap then to the plug wires & plugs. That circuit carries about 22kv or so.

So.......

Battery on, points open, check for battery voltage across the points.

The only way shade-tree way to check the secondary circuit is w/ a plug tester or old spark plug."

If you stick a multi-meter probe in the secondary coil circuit & crank the engine over, you will burn up the meter.

Understand now?

So the first thing you need to do is make sure your meter still works.

Normally, w/ those results, I'd say your coil is toast.

But, rule of thumb, round coils are bullet proof.

So........

Check you coil resistance.

Put one lead on both primary circuit posts.

What is the reading in ohms?

Now, put one lead on one primary circuit post & the other lead on the secondary post.

What is the reading in ohms?

Next, check continuity on the secondary wire going from the coil to the distributor.

Next, remove the cap, bump the starter (or turn the fan by hand) until the points are open & measure the voltage (key on) across the open points.

What is it?

Finally.....

Key on, remove the secondary coil wire from the distributor cap. Hold the end of it 1/4" from the block. Turn the key on & crank the engine.

See any spark?

Post back w/ answers.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

I know you think im stupid but here goes. ill check ohms tomorrow,
Point a to ground 12 volts Point c to ground it did go up to 6 volts one time. Point b to ground 1 volt . Point b goes to Distributor ...
Now if im getting what you say im gonna ohm out point a and b? then ill post pic tomorrow of distrubator and point then ill label and maybe go from there...My coil only has 3 wirers including the spark wire that goes to distributor. now i took it off and ohmed it out and it was reading open is that right? my meter is fine i checked volts on battery to make sure.

 

[shane12970]

Here can you help me LOL Points are opening and closing. but no fire that i can see. I do have cheap light spark tester. when i hook it up to spark plug no spark. Thanks again

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Key off.

Get the ohm's between a & b.

Then, between a & c.

" it was reading open"

Open? really? As in no continuity?

Put your test leads together.

What do you see?

You should see nearly the same reading on that secondary coil wire.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Turn the engine until the points fully open. (.025, BTW)

Then turn the key on. Put one probe on A & the other on B.

What's the voltage?

And finally.....

Key on, remove the secondary coil wire from the distributor cap. Hold the end of it 1/4" from the block. Turn the key on & crank the engine.

See any spark?

Post back w/ answers.

 

[shane12970]

That was voltage on the coil. Will get results tomorrow on ohms. Had to yake kids to practice.thanks again this makes it easier.

 

[shane12970]

1. a to b 9 ohms
2.a to c open

 

[shane12970]

1. a to b 1 v
2. had spark but wasnt blue was more like when you light a bic. the orange sparks
also did secondary test with plug and sparktester. nothing

 

[shane12970]

I was reading up on coils. Isnt 9 ohms too much? I double checked ... that would mean only 1.3 amps going to points. If E= I X R.. where as if it was reading 4 ohms like ive seen its suppose to that would be a little over 3 amps Going to points.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Coil problems are difficult to diagnose. For starters, round coils are pretty robust & square coils aren’t (because of the difference in insulation used), but neither one will hold up to a poorly done 12v conversion that allows too much current to the coil or leaving the key on (see tip # 38). Too much current creates heat which melts the insulation. Insufficient resistance in a 12v conversion will do the same thing. Rarely do coils just “go bad.”

There are a few ways to see if a coil is bad, but it’s not possible to determine if a coil is good w/o some expensive testing equipment. If you detect a dead short or high resistance in the coil w/ an ohm meter, it’s bad. If it’s cracked, it’s bad. If a sidemount coil w/ battery voltage to the primary will not jump a ¼” gap from the secondary wire to the block, it’s bad.

Your coil has failed 2 tests. It won't jump a 1/4" gap & the internal resistance is out of the normal value.

Odds are the coil is bad. And that's unusual.

Go to NAPA & get p/n IC14SB.

Post back w/ results.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

Im gonna re wire tractor first.i was reading up and from what you said i think. Ill do that. The coil at napa is like 80 bucks . I ohmed out. My sparl
K plug wires and they wete all dif plus they have paint on them from prev. . Owners . Ill post results in a new post. Thanks shane

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" The coil at napa is like 80 bucks "

You entered the wrong p/n.

It's $23.99

Just go to the NAPA site & key in IC14SB.

It's $36 on this site.

$14 at nnalert's.

Yea, post back w/ results.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

Ok bruce here we go. apparently my Fluke is wrong on the resistance . I got another meter that i have. and here the readings on coil..Only differance is i have coil out of tractor. The fluke is reading wrong.. i checked spark plug wires with it and they are reading open. my other meter is reading them good. On the voltage it read ok on my battery but ill recheck with this other meter.
1.A to B 3.5 Ohms
2.A to C 5 Ohms


what should voltage be? and if its ok whats next step?

 

[Hobo,NC]

Use a automotive sealed beam headlight take the wires off the coil and wire one side of the headlight to A and the other to B. Switch on points open the headlight should be off,,,, points closed the light should be on and bright... Crank the engine the light should blink bright... The headlight loads the circuit at about the same amperage as a coil... This proves your switch is good wire to the coil is good and the wiring to the points are good and the points are able to open and close the circuit...

Voltage checks lie and resistance checks lie once you understand the load in the circuit has to be in place and reliable you then can bank on voltage checks...

 

[Bruce (VA)]

A to B is fine. That's a 12v coil.

A to C is ok because it does not show a dead short.

Re voltage.....

I've told you how to check that in prior posts.

Did you miss it?
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

(quoted from post at 05:40:59 08/14/14) A to B is fine. That's a 12v coil.

A to C is ok because it does not show a dead short.

Re voltage.....

I've told you how to check that in prior posts.

Did you miss it?
75 Tips

no i did voltage but want to make sure because meter is acting funny.. it was 1 volt from points

 

[Bruce (VA)]

Key on, points open. Voltage should be 12.35v or so across the open points. (battery voltage)

From A on the coil to ground, points open, battery voltage

From B on the coil to ground, points open, battery voltage

Finally, remove the secondary wire from the cap, hold it 1/4" from the manifold & crank the engine. You should see & hear a spark.

Do NOT attempt to measure voltage on the secondary circuit w/ a meter.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

Got light It would come on . buts heres the problem.
1. I think bushing is wore out. You can wiggle the shaft and pull it up about 1/4 to 1/2 inches..
I can put screwdriver between point and shaft and light wil come on.. if i push point up til light comes on then hit starter it will go out..( mind you i didnt loosen point just push a little with screwdriver. Im thinking distributor or points and condenser . or all . what do you think? If it distrubitor can i replace the bushings ? how hard is that?Thanks so much

 

[shane12970]

go out and not come back on... not on and off or blink..


Again I really appreciate the help. if it is dist. and i have to buy one ill need help on that too . but it will be next month lol money is tight this month and wife is fussing LOL. Again Thanks Shane

 

[Bruce (VA)]

IF (and that's a big IF) it's just the bushings, it's not a difficult fix, but you will need some advice on it. But......

Chances are it's more than just bushings if it's got that much slop in it.

New distributor here is $210.
75 Tips

 

[shane12970]

(quoted from post at 11:54:08 08/14/14) IF (and that's a big IF) it's just the bushings, it's not a difficult fix, but you will need some advice on it. But......

Chances are it's more than just bushings if it's got that much slop in it.

New distributor here is $210.
75 Tips

Its a good bit. It will be next month before i get the money. Thank you