oil sludge

[pierce]

so I am changing the oil on this ratty old 8N I got. previous owners apparently treated it as a constant loss system and just topped it off, never changing oil and filters, yuck. So, I ran it around my yard a couple times to warm it up, let it idle for 5-10 minutes parked, then shut it off and waited 5-10 more minutes so it wouldn't be SCALDING hot, and dropped the oil plug.

well, the stuff that came out was BLACK and nasty. Worse, there's a half inch of ugly slime on the inside of the oil drain cover.

also, the oil filter housing still is half full of oil thats not draining out, and if I reach a (gloved) finger in and poke around, it feels pretty sludgy in the bottom. I'm gonna give it a couple hours to see if it eventually drains out... it should, shouldn't it?


Any suggestions about the sludge in the oil pan short of a total teardown ? can I dump something into the new oil to help dissolve this sludge and do a 2nd oil change after a few hours of operation? or am I better off to just leave it alone, drop in 5 quarts of 20W50 and a new cleaner and move on?

btw, my oil pressure stays at 40 at idle when fully warmed up, and goes up to 45-50 when I rev the engine. even if I almost lug it at idle by working the hydraulics (this has a seperate pump for a front loader), it never goes below 30. of course, I have no clue how accurate a 65 year old oil pressure gauge is.

 

[JCinKY]

(quoted from post at 17:27:52 08/28/13) so I am changing the oil on this ratty old 8N I got. previous owners apparently treated it as a constant loss system and just topped it off, never changing oil and filters, yuck. So, I ran it around my yard a couple times to warm it up, let it idle for 5-10 minutes parked, then shut it off and waited 5-10 more minutes so it wouldn't be SCALDING hot, and dropped the oil plug.

well, the stuff that came out was BLACK and nasty. Worse, there's a half inch of ugly slime on the inside of the oil drain cover.

also, the oil filter housing still is half full of oil thats not draining out, and if I reach a (gloved) finger in and poke around, it feels pretty sludgy in the bottom. I'm gonna give it a couple hours to see if it eventually drains out... it should, shouldn't it?


Any suggestions about the sludge in the oil pan short of a total teardown ? can I dump something into the new oil to help dissolve this sludge and do a 2nd oil change after a few hours of operation? or am I better off to just leave it alone, drop in 5 quarts of 20W50 and a new cleaner and move on?

btw, my oil pressure stays at 40 at idle when fully warmed up, and goes up to 45-50 when I rev the engine. even if I almost lug it at idle by working the hydraulics (this has a seperate pump for a front loader), it never goes below 30. of course, I have no clue how accurate a 65 year old oil pressure gauge is.

If it were mine I would do a couple short changes using modern detergent oil and some ATF in the crankcase.

Your OP numbers are great. Sludge and the old gauge is suspect though.

Given enough time, oil changes, detergent and quality filters it will come out on its own. And you avoid a little work.

 

[Royse]

I would probably do about the same as JC suggested.
I would add clean everything you reasonably can, oil filter housing, lines, etc.
Pulling the oil pan to clean it isn't as easy as it sounds.
Make sure your drain plug still has the big screen around it.
It goes around the oil pump pickup tube. Be careful with that tube.
It should not be loose and you don't want to break it loose.
I'd bet a cold delicious that your gauge is not accurate.

 

[pierce]

wasd planning on putting Castrol GTX 20W50 (plain original GTX) in there now. thats always been my go-to oil for older engines that prefer heavier weight oil.

ATF? hmm, I do have a case or two of Import Multi (Dex III/Merc stuff, for my older Volvos that have Aisin-Warner (Toyota) transmissions...

what do you figure, 1 quart ATF, 4 quarts 20W50 ?

 

[JCinKY]

(quoted from post at 17:45:10 08/28/13)
wasd planning on putting Castrol GTX 20W50 (plain original GTX) in there now. thats always been my go-to oil for older engines that prefer heavier weight oil.

ATF? hmm, I do have a case or two of Import Multi (Dex III/Merc stuff, for my older Volvos that have Aisin-Warner (Toyota) transmissions...

what do you figure, 1 quart ATF, 4 quarts 20W50 ?

4:1 would be perfect. You'd be surprised how well it works.

If your OP is really that good you don't need 20-50. 10-30 would be just fine.

I'd use the cheapest detergent oil I could find. Use WalMart brand or the like. Remember your short changing it so save yourself a few bucks.

 

[Dean]

REMOVE the oil filter canister and thoroughly clean it. You will be amazed by what you find and how difficult it is go remove all of it. Blow out both lines with compressed air.

Dean

 

[pierce]

ah to heck with it. thats exactly what I put in it. and yeah, after maybe 4-8 hours of operation (which will take me weeks to actually do), i'll change it again, and maybe again.

hey, I had a WIX 21010 filter which I thought was supposed to be the right one, but there was no way it was going to go down over the center tube, without having to remove the gas tank and gasoline sediment trap thing. I also had a TRAC brand filter, this one had a thicker rubber gasket on the bottom and fit over that tube. hmmmmm.

btw, that last 2-3" of oil in the filter can didn't ever drain out. i wonder if the return line from the oil filter is flugged up too?

 

[Royse]

(quoted from post at 21:36:37 08/28/13)i wonder if the return line from the oil filter is flugged up too?

Probably, if you didn't clean the lines.

 

[Ultradog MN]

If you have a pump type garden sprayer it wouldn't be hard to spray a couple of gallons of gas in the drain hole and wash a bunch of that crud out of there. Wave the wand around in the hole and let it flow back out into the drain pan.

edit: I forgot that the drain is on the bottom of the pan on an N isn't it.
Not on the lower corner like later tractors have.
You could still squirt some gas up there though and flush it out a little.

 

[Hobo,NC]

I would short change as suggested,,, I would not add ATF to it not in a million years nor flush it with gas are anything that would haft way dissolve years of DIRT/acid and combustion byproducts that's gonna go straight for the crank....

A N pan has baffles in it most of the chit will lay their till its time to rebuild the engine...

 

[Dean]

See below.

Dean

 

[Dell (WA)]

pierce.........iff'n yer sphincterly challenged, use a garden sprayer with DIESEL not gasoline. Most of the time, you need a putty knife to scrape the sludge in bottom of oil pan. Sludge is caused by 4-things.....non-detergent oil; short time operation; infrequent oil changes; clogged oil filter. In 1939, Ford spec'd 30wt detergent; and 40wt for HOT operation. Ford also recommended adding kerosine for cold weather operation. Modern multi-weight oil is much better. I recommend 20-50wt oil. Iff'n you can't register about 35psi on the oil pressure gauge, try 50wt RACING oil. ........oily Dell

 

[L. B,]

Is the motor ratty or do ya think its worth saving? We use to drop a qt of diesel in the sump and run it a while but HOBO may be correct not to do it with so much crud in it.If it were me and the motor is in fair shape I would drop the pan and clean it up. You would get a look see inside. Other wise just change oil and go. Change it when it gets dirty. The undisturbed sludge is no big deal. You could also run 30 weight of non-detergent. I run non-detergent in my oldest tractors for 35yrs that way the sludge will stay. Sludge comes from non-detergent oil in the passed or from detergent oil that could not carry any more crud.

 

[pierce]

the motor smokes, but otherwise runs fine. today it was smoking less than before, although at one point it let out a nice blue cloud.

I did put 1 qt ATF and 4 qts of 20w50 in it this time around, I am currently planning on changing the oil and filter after a few hours of operation and this time taking the oil filter cannister off and cleaning it out properly, yeah, kerosene and compressor.... I might even toss a quart or two of kerosene in the crankcase with some cheap oil, run that for a bit, then dump it and put regular oil in again, run a few more hours.

 

[heybusdriver]

This my opinion only , not trying to convince
anyone of anything. Years ago in the early 1970's
I owned a 1965 Chrysler(383), I decided to do a
real clean oil change. Back then we had a n oil
called Rislone , it called for to be used with 6
quarts regular oil along with one quart of Rislone
, NOT TO BE DRIVEN ONLY USED WHILE IDLING, if I
remember right for only 30 minutes before
changing. Recollection may not be as accurate as I
think , anyways what it called for is what I done.
After changing the oil it was so clean , I
couldn't keep oil in it anymore all the seals
leaked the car now burned oil quickly, it almost
ruined my motor. I hope your experience is better
than mine was.

Stan
9N 222933
2N with 8N motor 8N345567
8N 146710
8N 179555
8N 197904
8N 199000
8N 254079
8N 362039

 

[D beatty]

I have never desludged a Ford tractor but did a few Internationals and they were as bad as your Ford. I got them hot and added a quart of diesel fuel and run them for 10 minutes and drained them out hot. Take filter off and clean and put new filter on it and refilled with oil. For the next 4 oil changes ( short interval between oil change) I used Texaco 15-40 Havoline truck oil which does a good job of cleaning an engine. After fourth oil change went back to the oil I wanted to use. Thats been years ago and they are still clean and have had no problems with them.

 

[36 Coupe]

I use an oil suction gun to empty filter housings.Doing that way since the mid 50s.Didnt have time to wait for it to drain on customers cars and trucks.The filter inlet line has a restrictor fitting with a .040 hole in it.It may be plugged.Stay away from the 20/ 50 oils,most have a cold pour point like 30 wt oil.I cant use Rotella 15/40 in my F150 truck.Wandering oil pressure and rappy starts in DEC.a change to 10/30 stopped that.Owners manual says 15/40 is ok to use but only above 32 degrees..Put a sample of 20/50 and 10/30 oil in the freezer and see how it pours at 0 degrees.If you want to understand how sludge is formed, empty out your oil drain pan and leave it out in the rain.You will see gray sludge.Oil pumps can MIX oil and water.Much BS about motor oil on this forum.

 

[DollarBill]

It's totally your call but I have seen too many well intentioned owners try to clean up their crankcase by using ATF/Risilone/Diesel/Kerosene to break up the sludge. You want to go slow and steady otherwise you may wind up with an avalanche that clogs the screen or washes out the bearings. I endorse short change oil service intervals using cheap 30 weight high detergent oil - Change the filter too. Run it long enough for the oil to turn black which tells you the detergent package is working and removing the sludge. Once you have it clean, use a good diesel grade oil such as Rotella T 15W40.

Oil filter part number is:

Fram C3, C3-P
NAPA Gold 1010
Motorcraft FL 144
Baldwin P40
Big A 92010
Bosch 72127
Carquest 85010
Fleetguard LF574
Wix 51010
Purolater L20110 or L20701
Fleetrite LFR-8574
Texaco HSO-100
Unocal OF 1010
White 10575
Hastings Mighty M3LF-130
Luber-Finer P3

 

[souNdguy]

on one that bad.. I'd short change it too.

buy a stack of the cheap C3 fram filters for 5$ each.. and get a 5g pail of walmart or tsc 30w oil

I have a JD B that was the same way.. more gunk than oil.


Over short intervals...I did like 7 oil changes on it before oil came out clean.


On a machine it's easy to get the pan off.. or a sump cover off ( like and N hyd pump.. or a 53-64 oil pan.. I don't mind pulling and cleaning.. etc..

 

[TJ in KY]

(quoted from post at 17:27:52 08/28/13) so I am changing the oil on this ratty old 8N I got. previous owners apparently treated it as a constant loss system and just topped it off, never changing oil and filters, yuck. So, I ran it around my yard a couple times to warm it up, let it idle for 5-10 minutes parked, then shut it off and waited 5-10 more minutes so it wouldn't be SCALDING hot, and dropped the oil plug.

well, the stuff that came out was BLACK and nasty. Worse, there's a half inch of ugly slime on the inside of the oil drain cover.

also, the oil filter housing still is half full of oil thats not draining out, and if I reach a (gloved) finger in and poke around, it feels pretty sludgy in the bottom. I'm gonna give it a couple hours to see if it eventually drains out... it should, shouldn't it?


Any suggestions about the sludge in the oil pan short of a total teardown ? can I dump something into the new oil to help dissolve this sludge and do a 2nd oil change after a few hours of operation? or am I better off to just leave it alone, drop in 5 quarts of 20W50 and a new cleaner and move on?

btw, my oil pressure stays at 40 at idle when fully warmed up, and goes up to 45-50 when I rev the engine. even if I almost lug it at idle by working the hydraulics (this has a seperate pump for a front loader), it never goes below 30. of course, I have no clue how accurate a 65 year old oil pressure gauge is.

I just happened to have my engine apart. Here is a picture of oil pan internal baffles.

 

[Joseph D]

Be careful not to pump the garden sprayer too much. Compression will cause Diesel or gasoline to explode.

 

[Hobo,NC]

This artical will break some of the myths...

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082013_09.pdf

Sludge!,,, sure poor maintenance and poor oil contribute. Fact is its the nature of the beast...

 

[DollarBill]

Sludge!,,, sure poor maintenance and poor oil contribute. Fact is its the nature of the beast...

Hobo, I read the article you posted with great interest - What they report seems plausible and then one asks - [i:39b9a1721f]If it's the nature of the beast, with all things being equal, why are some engines cleaner than others at tear down?[/i:39b9a1721f]

 

[NoNewParts]

(quoted from post at 22:57:01 08/29/13) This artical will break some of the myths...

http://www.motor.com/magazine/pdfs/082013_09.pdf

Sludge!,,, sure poor maintenance and poor oil contribute. Fact is its the nature of the beast...

good article
Since we have oil bath air cleaners, not paper
I routinely use a piece of heater hose from the
valve cover breather, etc
to the air cleaner intake path on tractors that smoke some.
cuts down on the mess and smell
Looks like I should do it on all of them....

(On a JD B that was 'puffing' out the clutch housing, a T on the oil fill connected to a hose run down, road draft style, stopped it.
I'll get around to plumbing it to the air cleaner someday. need a lot of hose on a B to reach.......)

 

[Ultradog MN]

You are right about the baffles. Forgot about that.
Works good on 53 and later pans that don't have the baffels though. Drain plug is on the side too so easier to spray in.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 12:22:30 08/30/13)

Sludge!,,, sure poor maintenance and poor oil contribute. Fact is its the nature of the beast...

Hobo, I read the article you posted with great interest - What they report seems plausible and then one asks - [i:a16fae0c8b]If it's the nature of the beast, with all things being equal, why are some engines cleaner than others at tear down?[/i:a16fae0c8b]

It would be hard to say with out knowing the history of the engine... Their are a few modern engines that are know to sludge up even when they are maintained... All you can do is perform maintenance on a timely Schedule... You will know the ones that practice maintenance when its dissembled the problem is those give very little trouble its those that are poorly maintained that do ...

Spray wipe and go flushes are more a feel good thing if it makes you feel go go for it... I would get it good-N-hot drop the drain plug and walk away from it for a day are more re-fill and hope for the best...

 

[Hobo,NC]

I have had thoughts of doing the same I just don't have the ambition... Theirs no doubt the vent system can be improved...

Heater hose is not a good choice tho you may get away with it in your case keep a good check on it and replace as needed heater hose is cheap

I once worked on a Cadillac that was a huffer and a puffer,, the owner hooked a garden hose to the crank case breather tap and ran it under the car to the rear bumper :lol: