on electical troubleshooting

[kev8n]

From reading the queries and responses there arises I think, some confusion about the particular findings when folks are trying to relate the results of their 'letrical sleuthing.

There are statements like: "I followed the power through the ballast resistor and there was 6.2 volts on both ends and there was 6.2 volts at the coil so I know the current is getting there." or some similarly mixed assessment.

These types of statements can be pretty difficult to read through.

It really helps the language (and the logic) to always consider current THROUGH, power AT and voltage ACROSS any element of the circuit (though voltages taken with respect to chassis ground are typically described AT point such and such) -it is still well to keep in mind that this is the voltage ACROSS every element up to that point.

This is not hairsplitting; electrical quantities have specific names and meanings so we can pretend that it's all scientific-like.

It is genuinely helpful when you post questions (or answers for that matter) to consider the nature of the quantities you are relating to accurately convey the problem and your measurements to potential respondents.
*****************************************
current through
power at
voltage across (or @ a point from ground)
resistance across

fwiw,
kevin

 

[souNdguy]

uh.. yeah.. it's hair splitting and probably too pocket protectorish for this sub.

PS.. how about voltage drop across a component

read the archives. there are already about half a dozen or more engineers on the forum. hi brow electron talk probably confuses more laypeople than casual not quite precise 'lectrical jargon.

soundguy

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 21:44:04 11/20/10) From reading the queries and responses there arises I think, some confusion about the particular findings when folks are trying to relate the results of their 'letrical sleuthing.

There are statements like: "I followed the power through the ballast resistor and there was 6.2 volts on both ends and there was 6.2 volts at the coil so I know the current is getting there." or some similarly mixed assessment.

These types of statements can be pretty difficult to read through.

It really helps the language (and the logic) to always consider current THROUGH, power AT and voltage ACROSS any element of the circuit (though voltages taken with respect to chassis ground are typically described AT point such and such) -it is still well to keep in mind that this is the voltage ACROSS every element up to that point.

This is not hairsplitting; electrical quantities have specific names and meanings so we can pretend that it's all scientific-like.

It is genuinely helpful when you post questions (or answers for that matter) to consider the nature of the quantities you are relating to accurately convey the problem and your measurements to potential respondents.
*****************************************
current through
power at
voltage across (or @ a point from ground)
resistance across

fwiw,
kevin

es, Kev, maybe a little bit will rub off & in the mean time I will no doubt have to keep on reading & running their words through my "mental input filter".

 

[kev8n]

We're not talking about flicker noise, DMA controllers ot Nyquist' criterion here. These are very fundamental concepts that *may* help "newbies" understand what they are really doing and discovering by measurement.

I'm not negatively criticizing anyone (intentionally, anyway). It is equivalent to the reasonable advice frequently repeated to questioners here that they should state what tractor model, year and ignition system type they have so others can get a good inital grasp of the possibilities.

"Every time I pull on the shifter my box-blade doesn't move anymore." -Since, after all, the Touch Control "shifts" the implement up and down this is a reasonable description, right?

If everyone just makes up whatever terminology or tractor description suits them to describe things this does not expedite solution. We have some tractor version of Ebonics.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

kevin, the pocket-protectorless



kevin

 

[lha]

Most people have some topic they can explain better than others.These same people that may not use the proper nomenclature in electrical matters may,after hearing you or others,me included,explaining legal,economic,medical,etc.terms may have similar remarks.Everyone has talents and interests particular to themselves,and has to guess the meaning of others' explanations.---lha

 

[Jock (OR)]

When I try to explain electricity to someone, I first see if that person understands water pressure and flow. If they do, I use the analogy that:

ELECTRICAL WATER
Voltage = Pressure
Amps = Flow
Resistance = Restriction to flow

For some people it is easier to understand the flow of water.

One of the hardest things for some people to understand is the return path of current through the "ground" on the tractor/vehicle, since it doesn't flow through wires.

 

[kev8n]

Can't help it, -guess it's the teacher in me.

kevin

 

[kev8n]

Jock,

I've often done this too but I have actually had people argue that hose length makes no difference to the flow of water, only the diameter "because the water doesn't know how much hose is up ahead when it goes in" or something of the sort. -So much for my analogy! At that point I just say "take resistance then, as an article of faith -like gravity".

kevin

 

[36 Coupe]

I see too many fellows here that dont have a clue when working on a simple ignition.I got interested in radio early on.I went the library and read books, later on I bought books.The dates I put in them say I was 13 years old.Any one can buy an old copy of Motors Manual that explains the basics of spark ignition.Friends and I learned auto mechanics by doing the work.I was on the road fixing TV sets when I was 17.I spent most of my working days in electronics.The computer is very good at finding information but you have to print it out and then find it when you need it.A tractors owners manual is loaded with information but many dont have one or even think they need one.The 8n manual is very good,I was looking a a friends 8n manual.My 640 manual is not so good but still useful.

 

[Bruce (VA)]

When it comes to technical subjects, it's been my experience that plenty of folks have the knowledge but not the ability to explain it to the non-expert; others can explain (teach?) others very well, but only have a superficial knowledge of the topic.....but the true masters are those who are indeed experts, who can easily explain the technical details of the topic.....but only do so to the extent necessary to answer the specific question.

Two folks around here who quickly come to mind as examples of the latter are Soundguy & JMOR. Both are EE's. Both will answer a question to the extent necessary w/o getting tied up in the theory. But, if you want theory.....they will be more than happy to oblige!

If you want to see positive results to your suggestion, you will need to repeat it over & over again as the situation requires. Five years ago, almost every question asked on this board was followed by a simple request for more info: "Is it 6v or 12v, front or side distributor?". After constant repetition, it finally has dawned on most folks that it is a basic requirement in troubleshooting to know what you are working on!

Yes, there is indeed a reason why I use a link to "50 Tips" as a signature block on all of my posts!
50 Tips

 

[old]

Yep a lot of us try to explain things with out going into ohms law or E=MC(squared) etc etc. Shoot I have forgotten more then most people will ever learn about zap-u-tron but some how after 6 years of being a navy E.T. then being out for 30 makes it easy to forget thing but still know more then most ever will. I know I for one try to explain things as easy and simple as I can

 

[souNdguy]

when they give you the BS about hose length not meaning anything tell them to google open channel flow so they can get some idea of resistance to flow from surface area contact.

I find it best when people asking questions are forced to think a lil bit for themselves too, vs spoon feeding them 100% of it. IE.. telling someone how to swim, vs telling them then tossing them into the shallow end for a lil practice, with a rope ready if needed..

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

in case you havn't noticed.. the average tractor user here does not understand a basic lamp circuit comprised of wire, spst switch, battery and a lamp element...

you have to ballance that with the white coat treatment when you dole out advice.

as long as context is high.. the menaing is usually obvious. it's dubious at best to expect the electrical layman to know all the correct terms, or understand all of them when spoken. ifthey did.. they likely wouldn't need advice.

I don't want my doctor telling me the latin name for my diagnosis, and the latin scribbled shorthand for my meds. I just want to know why when, where.. how man.. etc..

soundguy

 

[kev8n]

Well, in the vernacular, I'm down with that.

kevin