OT ELECTRICAL QUESTION

[lenray]

THREE WIRES COMING DOWN THE POLE into the meter. 3 wires from the meter to a 100 amp panel. Two of the wires go to the 100 amp breaker. QUESTION-----Does the third wire go to the Neutral Bar or to the Ground bar??? Two different opinions from two different electricians. Thanks for the help....

 

[zuhnc]

@lenray - Third wire (should be taped with WHITE tape, signifying the neutral) goes to BOTH the neutral and ground bars. That is where your neutral/ground bond is. Nowhere else should neutral and ground be connected together. My service is wired exactly the same. One of your "expert" electricians is incorrect. zuhnc

 

[lenray]

@lenray - Third wire (should be taped with WHITE tape, signifying the neutral) goes to BOTH the neutral and ground bars. That is where your neutral/ground bond is. Nowhere else should neutral and ground be connected together. My service is wired exactly the same. One of your "expert" electricians is incorrect. zuhnc

zuhnc----It does have the white tape on it. In the 100 amp panel there is a ground bar and a separate Neutral bar. The wire is on the Neutral bar. Not sure what you mean that it goes to BOTH??????

 

[wore out]

zuhnc----It does have the white tape on it. In the 100 amp panel there is a ground bar and a separate Neutral bar. The wire is on the Neutral bar. Not sure what you mean that it goes to BOTH??????

The neutral bar in the breaker box will be "bonded" to the metal box, as is the ground bar. They MAY be jumpered together, as well.

 

[john in la]

Right or Wrong here is what I do
First this may a terminology problem so I will include a picture

My code requires 4 wires from the meter panel because the bare copper wire runs all the way to the meter panel.
I always hook this bare copper wire plus the neutral wire with white tape to what I would call the ground side of the box like shown in the picture.
This is the bar on the side of the box that has the ground strap to box connection and the bare ground wire to the copper rod in the ground.
But really these wires could be hooked to either side of the box because of the "crossover tie bar".
This box shows a ground bar mounted on the box that is pointless in the main breaker box.

In a sub panel is where it gets important where you hook the ground and neutral.
The neutral gets moved to the bar that is not grounded to the box.
The bare copper wire gets hooked to the bar that is grounded to the box
And most important is the crossover bar gets removed
This allows neutral and ground to stay separated in the sub box.
In this box you could also use the ground bar mounted to the box rather than running the bare wire all the way to the other side of the box.

 

[Eman85]

Is this the primary panel?

 

[John T]

Right or Wrong here is what I do
First this may a terminology problem so I will include a picture

My code requires 4 wires from the meter panel because the bare copper wire runs all the way to the meter panel.
I always hook this bare copper wire plus the neutral wire with white tape to what I would call the ground side of the box like shown in the picture.
This is the bar on the side of the box that has the ground strap to box connection and the bare ground wire to the copper rod in the ground.
But really these wires could be hooked to either side of the box because of the "crossover tie bar".
This box shows a ground bar mounted on the box that is pointless in the main breaker box.

In a sub panel is where it gets important where you hook the ground and neutral.
The neutral gets moved to the bar that is not grounded to the box.
The bare copper wire gets hooked to the bar that is grounded to the box
And most important is the crossover bar gets removed
This allows neutral and ground to stay separated in the sub box.
In this box you could also use the ground bar mounted to the box rather than running the bare wire all the way to the other side of the box.

Good job John, congratulations. I can’t see the picture good in on my tiny phone but it looks like ??? you have it right as I understand todays code. At the main N is bonded and the metal case/frame is connected to the Ground Buss I assume but can’t tell ?? What the modern nec now says and professional electricians and engineers all know well:

There can be only one neutral ground BOND as Often found in a typical main panel, while at downstream sub panels n and g are isolated !!!!!!! That’s pretty basic and simple actually and all the fine gents here are pretty well aware of that by now.

Terminology taught to me in nec seminars to use for the Neutral was it’s a Grounded Conductor,,,Hot/Line conductors are called UnGrounded Conductors, while the often bare/green commonly called ground wire is actually the Equipment Grounding Conductor. The wire from Neutral to the grounding electrode is called the grounding electrode conductor.

At the time snd in the jurisdictions where I practiced typically often at the main the neutral was bonded to allllllllll readily available grounding electrodes such as made electrodes like ground rods and others

Non current carrying metal enclosures are attached to the equipment grounding conductor and that of course includes metal panel boards.

A bonding screw can be used to bond or not bond the Neutral as required. Some used as main panels have but one common NG buss where alllll n and g are connected.

Electrical as well as legal medical solar gas prices and evs draw out the most responses and opinions so there may be lots of answers but by now I think everyone has this down !!!!

Panels with those cross tie bars are typical and in the typical main panel n and g are bonded and the case/frame needs connected to the ground buss DUH but if used as a sub they are not. I have seen the incoming neutral attached to a grounding electrode in the main and other permissible locations.

Nuff for now as this may bore non sparkies but I still enjoy it. I’m rusty and codes change but I believe what I posted is still accurate, if not hopefully more current professionals can help me out


Thanks John

John

 

[John T]

Len here’s a ps to answer your question

The third wire is the Neutral IE the Grounded Conductor. It attaches to the Neutral Buss in the panel if it has either a separate Neutral Buss orrrr a combination NG buss. In the typical main first disconnect panel N is Bonded to Ground snd there may be two busses (Tied together ) or just one common ng buss. So that third wire is neutral and it connects to n buss if it has one or maybe to a single common ng buss

That was per the nec when and where I last practiced and the nec seminars I attended no warranty it may have changed

Bottom line it’s the neutral.

John T

 

[John T]

zuhnc----It does have the white tape on it. In the 100 amp panel there is a ground bar and a separate Neutral bar. The wire is on the Neutral bar. Not sure what you mean that it goes to BOTH??????

The wire is on the Neutral bar

THATS WHERE IT (The Grounded conductor IE Neutral) SHOULD GO

On some main suitable for service entrance panels there are TWO BUSS BARS the Neutral Buss where all the Whites (Neutrals) are wired and the Ground Buss where all the Bare/Green Ground wires are wired..........IFFFFFFFFFFFF thats a typical main service entrance panel disconnect THOSE TWO BUSSES ARE TIED TOGETHER (maybe using a cross tie bar) by which the Neutral Ground BOND is established..........

On some panels there's only one common Neutral Ground Buss where BOTH all the Whites and Bare/Greens are attached and, in that case again, the Neutral Ground Bond is established.

Neutral goes to Neutral Buss which may or may not be Bonded to Ground

At least thats how it was when and where I practiced per the NEC

John T

 

[zuhnc]

If only THREE wires (hot, hot, neutral) into the main panel, then the NEUTRAL AND GROUND *MUST* be bonded in that panel. No where else.

If FOUR wires (hot, hot, neutral, ground) into the main panel, then the NEUTRAL/GROUND bond is at the meter base, and NOT in the main panel.
'
@john in la has the four-wire scenario, and his bond should be in the meter base; I (and the OP) have the three-wire scenario, and the bond is (should be) in the main panel.

Most current codes require four wires from the meter base into the main panel. Whatever code was in effect at the time of installation means the installation does not have to meet current codes, unless upgraded, selling requirements, insurance requirements, etc. It appears the OP's (and my) installation would be grandfathered in.

So, the OP needs to determine if the neutral and ground are actually bonded in the main panel. There should be either a tie bar between the neutral and ground buss bars or green screw through the buss bars to the enclosure, or some other means.

New installations or upgrades, I think, have to meet the current code for your location, and the AHJ has the final say. zuhnc

 

[John T]

If only THREE wires (hot, hot, neutral) into the main panel, then the NEUTRAL AND GROUND *MUST* be bonded in that panel. No where else.

If FOUR wires (hot, hot, neutral, ground) into the main panel, then the NEUTRAL/GROUND bond is at the meter base, and NOT in the main panel.
'
@john in la has the four-wire scenario, and his bond should be in the meter base; I (and the OP) have the three-wire scenario, and the bond is (should be) in the main panel.

Most current codes require four wires from the meter base into the main panel. Whatever code was in effect at the time of installation means the installation does not have to meet current codes, unless upgraded, selling requirements, insurance requirements, etc. It appears the OP's (and my) installation would be grandfathered in.

So, the OP needs to determine if the neutral and ground are actually bonded in the main panel. There should be either a tie bar between the neutral and ground buss bars or green screw through the buss bars to the enclosure, or some other means.

New installations or upgrades, I think, have to meet the current code for your location, and the AHJ has the final say. zuhnc

Excellent info zu thanks for posting ! I have seen codes or at least practices (code proper ????) change over the years in certain areas regarding the Neutral Ground Bond. In years past I’ve seen it in different times in different jurisdictions such as in the main panel if it’s the first disconnect. If the first disconnect is elsewhere upstream things may change subject to codes at the time. Also different inspectors preferred different locations grrrrr. Of course we have no idea exactly how John is wired and local rules there.

On a similar note I’ve seen the incoming Neutral attached to the grounding electrode conductor up at the aerial riser,,,,in the meter base,,,and in the panel. It’s been years since I practiced so I wouldn’t swear the rules where John lives or anywhere for that matter grrrr

Fun sparky chatting even if others are bored to tears lol

John T

 

[zuhnc]

Even though my meter base also has two main breakers (house and shop), there are only three wires to the main panel. So, my bond is in the main panel. Made it interesting when installing my backup generators. Had to have two due to the two different feeds, and the H/G bond in their respective panels. Couldn't figure out how to have one generator for both locations due to the H/G bond issue. And the potential of differing potentials between the two feeds, and possibility of circuit breakers or GFCI's not operating properly. Two generators took care of that issue! Zuhnc

 

[John T]

Hi again zu. Of course as you already well know there is to be only one neutral ground bond so if you stick to that rule it makes things manageable MAYBE ???? Lol

Question. Is a meter base the first means of disconnect ???? Break the seal to pull it out indeed disconnects lol but that’s a no no so I dont figure it as any normal disconnect.

PS. If there’s only 3 wires like L1 L2 N triplex with no bond there’s no EGC yet. It’s after there’s a NG Bond ( plus you earth ground the neutral) you then carry 4 wires to sub panels L L N G and you don’t bond again. If there’s 4 wires looks like there’s already a n g bond and we know you don’t bond again ?????? Just asking

Years ago as I recall we bonded at the first disconnect which was usually the main service entrance panel but if there was a main stand alone brreker ahead you bonded there and carried 4 wires to main panel. No warranty and codes may have since chsnged .!!

Love this even if non sparkies are tired of it lol
John T

 

[zuhnc]

@John T - Yes, main disconnects for both buildings directly below the meter (appropriate sized breakers for the buildings' panels); BUT, there is ONLY three wires to the main panel. So, the N/G bond is in the main panel. There is NO separate ground(ing) wire from the meter base to the main panel. The main panel neutral and ground buss's are grounded to a ground rod immediately adjacent. All my sub-panels have 4 wires and no N/G bond.

I had an electrician friend in Norfolk, VA (owned his own company and very good) guide me on my generator installation.

Enough with the N/G discussion; I agree, most on here have already gone to sleep .

But I hope enough information has been posted here to have answered the OP's question. zuhnc

 

[Russ from MN]

There is a transfer switch called Generlink that goes in between the meter and the base, and many utilities will install it for free, but it costs about $1200. on Amazon. Then everything fed by the meter could be on one generator, if it's big enough.

 

[John T]

@John T - Yes, main disconnects for both buildings directly below the meter (appropriate sized breakers for the buildings' panels); BUT, there is ONLY three wires to the main panel. So, the N/G bond is in the main panel. There is NO separate ground(ing) wire from the meter base to the main panel. The main panel neutral and ground buss's are grounded to a ground rod immediately adjacent. All my sub-panels have 4 wires and no N/G bond.

I had an electrician friend in Norfolk, VA (owned his own company and very good) guide me on my generator installation.

Enough with the N/G discussion; I agree, most on here have already gone to sleep .

But I hope enough information has been posted here to have answered the OP's question. zuhnc

With only 3 wires to main panels L1 L2 N I agree with bonding at the main yayyyyy lol we’re on the same page. If there were 4 snd the N G bond was already established dont re bond.

Like you I’m going to sleep lol and bet the non sparkies have already. Again codes change and I have no idea what they say where the op is ??

So nice sparky chatting with you on this. You have a good day

John T

 

[bc]

With only 3 wires to main panels L1 L2 N I agree with bonding at the main yayyyyy lol we’re on the same page. If there were 4 snd the N G bond was already established dont re bond.

Like you I’m going to sleep lol and bet the non sparkies have already. Again codes change and I have no idea what they say where the op is ??

So nice sparky chatting with you on this. You have a good day

John T

Problem with codes in this country is none are consistent. NEC changes every 3 years with the latest being 2023. Which is all run by the fire protection gurus and the latest technology. Some states adopt a code for everyone in the state and some leave it up to local jurisdictions. Those all have electrical boards usually made up of the senior electricians in the city or county. Then none of them have to adopt a particular code and they usually make additions for how they want to do it and typically have a list of exceptions for a bunch of stuff they don't like. Some of those guys are set in their ways. There are locals running NEC codes from the 1900s. However a local jurisdiction's fire insurance rating that their citizens pay is partially dependent upon adopting those codes along with other stuff related to their fire department's coverage.

When the GFCI breakers came out, it took years for some jurisdictions to adopt them. Then the AFCI breakers came out and there are jurisdictions that haven't fully adopted them. Some wait a number of years just to see how the changes shake out after being used around the country for number of years. Some still don't like the AFCI. Some of it is technology related.

Jurisdictions vary on their code on how to wire up welders which is always a wild discussion when that comes up here.

Seems like there is a code, then an exception buried in it, further buried is an exception to the exception, and another buried exception to that one, and on and on. It never fails that some poster will come up with the 20th exception to the rule no one else saw after 19 posters beat each other to death about who was right.

Then we have all the prior stuff that is grandfathered in to deal with. Still have old houses around with knob and tube wiring in them.

Then we have the different types of grids the power companies use, the number of phases going to a place, how the transformers are tapped, and some companies require a service entrance out on a pole so they don't have to pay for storm damage and replace lines to a house.

None of these older codes prevent electricians from using the latest and greatest when doing new construction and most do so. Design engineers call for it anyway.

I could go on with more from John T's book or books but will stop.

 

[John T]

Problem with codes in this country is none are consistent. NEC changes every 3 years with the latest being 2023. Which is all run by the fire protection gurus and the latest technology. Some states adopt a code for everyone in the state and some leave it up to local jurisdictions. Those all have electrical boards usually made up of the senior electricians in the city or county. Then none of them have to adopt a particular code and they usually make additions for how they want to do it and typically have a list of exceptions for a bunch of stuff they don't like. Some of those guys are set in their ways. There are locals running NEC codes from the 1900s. However a local jurisdiction's fire insurance rating that their citizens pay is partially dependent upon adopting those codes along with other stuff related to their fire department's coverage.

When the GFCI breakers came out, it took years for some jurisdictions to adopt them. Then the AFCI breakers came out and there are jurisdictions that haven't fully adopted them. Some wait a number of years just to see how the changes shake out after being used around the country for number of years. Some still don't like the AFCI. Some of it is technology related.

Jurisdictions vary on their code on how to wire up welders which is always a wild discussion when that comes up here.

Seems like there is a code, then an exception buried in it, further buried is an exception to the exception, and another buried exception to that one, and on and on. It never fails that some poster will come up with the 20th exception to the rule no one else saw after 19 posters beat each other to death about who was right.

Then we have all the prior stuff that is grandfathered in to deal with. Still have old houses around with knob and tube wiring in them.

Then we have the different types of grids the power companies use, the number of phases going to a place, how the transformers are tapped, and some companies require a service entrance out on a pole so they don't have to pay for storm damage and replace lines to a house.

None of these older codes prevent electricians from using the latest and greatest when doing new construction and most do so. Design engineers call for it anyway.

I could go on with more from John T's book or books but will stop.

Thanks I enjoyed your post and over many years, code changes, nec seminars and different locations I had similar experiences !!! When I attended nec update seminars I learned it was a fire or accident and its thorough investigation that brought about most changes. I can’t remember them all but Joe McPartland and. Mike Holt were teachers in some classes.

Being both an attorney and EE I can testify the nec is more complicated to understand than legal statutes lol with all the back references and exceptions grrr

Nuff said this poor old horse has been beat to death lol
John T

 

[stevieb49829]

Hey all you Sparkies, you keep emphasizing "bonding" and "bonded", but in the reality of common language, you'll have to admit that what it means is connected together by a wire, a strap, or screwed to the same metal in the box. The meaning of bonding may not be obvious to us laypersons. Keep that in mind when you start going deeply into the electrified weeds. I enjoy these discussions immensely, but it ticks me off when you throw bonding around like we all understand it. As John T says "grrrrr". steve

 

[zuhnc]

This where we go, sometimes?

zuhnc