OT ELECTRICAL QUESTION

[BarnyardEngineering]

Hey all you Sparkies, you keep emphasizing "bonding" and "bonded", but in the reality of common language, you'll have to admit that what it means is connected together by a wire, a strap, or screwed to the same metal in the box. The meaning of bonding may not be obvious to us laypersons. Keep that in mind when you start going deeply into the electrified weeds. I enjoy these discussions immensely, but it ticks me off when you throw bonding around like we all understand it. As John T says "grrrrr". steve

What's worse, is bondED and bondING are two completely different things that the sparkies will swear up and down are completely different and have nothing to do with each other.

 

[JMOR]

What's worse, is bondED and bondING are two completely different things that the sparkies will swear up and down are completely different and have nothing to do with each other.

Something related to getting a person out of jail.

 

[John T]

Hey all you Sparkies, you keep emphasizing "bonding" and "bonded", but in the reality of common language, you'll have to admit that what it means is connected together by a wire, a strap, or screwed to the same metal in the box. The meaning of bonding may not be obvious to us laypersons. Keep that in mind when you start going deeply into the electrified weeds. I enjoy these discussions immensely, but it ticks me off when you throw bonding around like we all understand it. As John T says "grrrrr". steve

You got it Steve !!! You BOND the Neutral by electrically connecting/attaching it to the Equipment Ground and then it becomes a Bonded instead of a Floating Neutral. The operation of making that connection is called Bonding. Most small portable gensets have a floating instead of a bonded neutral while larger often are bonded. Those are the terms taught in nec seminars and I intend no offense when I use them. Just as non plumbers non carpenters or non steam fitters may not understand terms it’s not a bad thing if non sparkies find some electrical terms confusing lol. I try my best to help but the terms I used most of my life are in my dna I can’t help myself !!!

Nice chatting with you Steve and you have a good handle on this !!!

John T

 

[DoubleO7]

I wonder if Lenray has had successfully completed the task?

 

[stevieb49829]

You got it Steve !!! You BOND the Neutral by electrically connecting/attaching it to the Equipment Ground and then it becomes a Bonded instead of a Floating Neutral. The operation of making that connection is called Bonding. Most small portable gensets have a floating instead of a bonded neutral while larger often are bonded. Those are the terms taught in nec seminars and I intend no offense when I use them. Just as non plumbers non carpenters or non steam fitters may not understand terms it’s not a bad thing if non sparkies find some electrical terms confusing lol. I try my best to help but the terms I used most of my life are in my dna I can’t help myself !!!

Nice chatting with you Steve and you have a good handle on this !!!

John T

Thanks, John. That is exactly my point. When each of us "specialists" go off into the weeds in our specialty, we tend to forget that our names for things don't always click with others. Just like I've been an editor in the past, and words and the way they are taken mean a lot to me. Do you think we are bonding?? Best to you and know that I really appreciate your posts and the respect you show to all the rest of us. steve

 

[Dusty MI]

In 2067 I started an apprenticeship with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and retired in early 2021. National Electric Code has changed Tremendously over the years, so much that I would have a very hard time working in the trade today.

Dusty

 

[JMOR]

In 2067 I started an apprenticeship with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and retired in early 2021. National Electric Code has changed Tremendously over the years, so much that I would have a very hard time working in the trade today.

Dusty

No surprise with so many years of negative experience! We are still 43 years before your apprentice start time!

 

[stevieb49829]

No surprise with so many years of negative experience! We are still 43 years before your apprentice start time!

Just be picky, why don't cha. Dusty may be a time traveler. Never make fun of a time traveler - they have ways of making you disappear, by disrupting your lineage . Steve

 

[Dusty MI]

In 2067 I started an apprenticeship with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and retired in early 2021. National Electric Code has changed Tremendously over the years, so much that I would have a very hard time working in the trade today.

Dusty

I just reread read. Typo, it was 1967, when I started my apprenticeship.
Dusty

 

[bc]

I just reread read. Typo, it was 1967, when I started my apprenticeship.
Dusty

No problem, I assumed you meant 1867.

 

[drsportster]

The guy that told you it goes to the ground bar is a dumb electrician that knows little

 

[lenray]

I wonder if Lenray has had successfully completed the task?

Have 10 of those 100 amp panels. On 9 of them the wire comes down from the meter and there are only 3 wires going into the 100 amp panel-----On 9 of those panels there is ONLY one bar to hook up the grounds and neutrals. On this particular 100 amp panel there is a ground bar and a Neutral bar. On this one the neutral wire went on the ground bar. The electrician removed it off the ground bar and hooked it up to the neutral bar.....????????

 

[zuhnc]

You MUST have a bond or connection between the neutral and ground in your main panel. Otherwise breakers and/or GFCi may not work properly. You have only THREE wires from the meter to the panel, unless you haven't told us you also have a bare ground wire in the bundle, or the bundle is wrapped with a metallic shield, or some such thing.

 

[caterpillar guy]

And it is all nonsense since they both end up as ground and connected to ground in one way or the other. IT just amounts to a double ground.

 

[drsportster]

And it is all nonsense since they both end up as ground and connected to ground in one way or the other. IT just amounts to a double ground.

Not at the sub-panel

 

[John T]

Not at the sub-panel

Exactly correct my old sparky electrician friend as the basic cardinal rule for sound and safe reasons sparkies understand is. There must be only one neutral ground bond.

That’s why if it’s a sub panel fed from the main where the bond has already been established you do nottttt bond again and n and g are isolated and insulated from each other. Well duh lol

Take care maybe see you when in Florida.

John T

 

[bc]

Probably what we haven't mentioned yet is the placement of up to three 8' ground rods that are stuck into the earth/ground near the main panel and connected to ground the panel to earth. Around here the rods are put in and connected at the meter by the power company.

Faults and shorts will end going to those rods. From the main panel in the house and a subpanel in the barn can be a few hundred feet of dirt. Dirt has a different ground potential and can be wet etc. Remember the thread we had about electricity traveling through the dirt/earth to water tanks, etc when using fence chargers that create a shock hazard. Lightning strikes have to go to the earth ground somehow.

I'll have to leave it to someone else with better knowledge to further explain what the earth grounding part of this thread discussion is.

 

[John T]

Probably what we haven't mentioned yet is the placement of up to three 8' ground rods that are stuck into the earth/ground near the main panel and connected to ground the panel to earth. Around here the rods are put in and connected at the meter by the power company.

Faults and shorts will end going to those rods. From the main panel in the house and a subpanel in the barn can be a few hundred feet of dirt. Dirt has a different ground potential and can be wet etc. Remember the thread we had about electricity traveling through the dirt/earth to water tanks, etc when using fence chargers that create a shock hazard. Lightning strikes have to go to the earth ground somehow.

I'll have to leave it to someone else with better knowledge to further explain what the earth grounding part of this thread discussion is.

Mornin bc, at the time and in our jurisdiction the nec required connecting the incoming service neutral (earth grounding) to all readily available grounding electrodes. If no others were available we used made electrodes by driving a rod into earth and testing it. If it passed no more were required . If not we drove a second rod but if the two still failed we were not required to drive a third. However the codes snd time snd locations differ and things may differ where someone else is.

earth grounding neutral is for surge and lightning protection snd to provide a common low voltage reference for the grid ie Mother Earth. It’s the Neutral that gets earth grounded. The panel and metal junction boxes etc get connected to the equipment ground buss with equipment grounding conductors so if there’s a short the EGC provides a return for fault current. Since the n is bonded to the ground buss sure it also has a path to Mother Earth. Duh. However the electrons are seeking a path back to the source and thats the transformer not mother earth !!!! It just happens that in an earth grounded grid the neutral happens to be connected to earth. The return electrons try to get to the treneformer not the panels ground rods. Duh


Neutral bonding to the equipment ground buss is not the same as earth grounding the neutral. It has to do with providing a return path for fault current only to clear the fault and prevent electrocution.

That’s plenty for now without going into the weeds snd confusing lay persons lol the horse is already dead but when a new question is asked I try to answer how it was when snd where I last practiced which may well be different now in diffetent locations

It’s impossible to explain volumes in a code book and years of education and experience to lay persons so the above isnt complete and perfect or accurate I just try my best…

John T

 

[DoubleO7]

Three pager coming up. !

 

[John T]

Three pager coming up. !

I hope not I try my best to help but I’m headed to the festival stage now for fun relaxation and entertainment may pick my old banjo later.

John T