OT - Gasoline Quality

[Ken(Ark)]

We just went over e10 gas and the fillers that they mix in it , but does the expensive stuff have the cheap nasty fillers ? Or is it the same craap with a higher octane rating ?

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 08:34:42 05/30/12) We just went over e10 gas and the fillers that they mix in it , but does the expensive stuff have the cheap nasty fillers ? Or is it the same craap with a higher octane rating ?

It's not that they are using fillers per se. Gasoline is by nature a mix of many different hydrocarbons some of which are desirable and some of which are not. The actual mix is very dependent on the quality and content of the crude as well as the refining process used to remove and/or convert unwanted hydrocarbons in the crude. That all equates to $$$$ in the long run regardless of octane rating. The octane of the blend can be boosted with additives (ethanol is one such additive) and/or more complex refining often at the cost of a reduced yield from the crude. Custom blended additives like detergents also affect performance and price. I suspect buying a big brand name like Shell, Exon, Sunoco, etc. probably doesn't get you much in the way of performance and around here the price can vary 10% -15% or more for the same brand. Buying from an established dealer that maintains the tanks and pumps is probably a better bet in terms of assuring a fresh uncontaminated product.

Just my $.02,

TOH

 

[Bruce (VA)]

" The octane of the blend can be boosted with additives (ethanol is one such additive)"

So, higher octane does not usually mean less ethanol in the blend? And, in fact, probably more?

 

[Jubilee85 (VA)]

I always heard that gas from the big boys was considered "branded" and was typically better than unbranded gas from "little" companies, then again I have heard that the unbranded is the same stuff from the same companies via a different truck....any thoughts on this?

 

[souNdguy]

all depends on who's selling and producing it.

you can get high and low octane straight gas .. marina's here sell 93octane, non ethanol gas. some small airfields have avgas in the 100-104 octane rating, no ethanol. we have one station north of town that sells 92 oct straight gas.

nowthen.. the rest of our stations are selling e10 or e15, in octane ranges from 87 to 93.

ethanol, besides having less btu and being a bit costly to produce.. since we use a foodstuff like corn, just happens to also be an octane modifier.

other , smarter countries don't take a first run food source like corn ( human, and animal feed main consituants ).. they use a byproduct like depleted sugarcan pressings.. or a WEED like switchgrass to make ethanol. both are much more economically productive at making biomass for ethanol, than CORN

leave it to our govt to choose a crop that is a near 100% staple to all animal and human feeds.. and choose that as a fuel supply... thus the more corn used for fuel.. the higher feed prices go. since ethanol production went into swing uyears ago.. i have seen animal feed prices nearly DOUBLE.. that's in under 2 decades...

soundguy

 

[Jimmyjack]

I live a couple of miles from a tank station, and almost every brand lines up waiting for gasoline. Some brands get their gas from some other tank station, but the ones here must just change the additives according to their preferance? When the price is going to change, there may be fifteen or twenty trucks trying to beat the deadline. Im convinced all of the gas comes out of the same pipeline.

 

[rustyfarmall]

(quoted from post at 10:31:59 05/30/12) all depends on who's selling and producing it.

you can get high and low octane straight gas .. marina's here sell 93octane, non ethanol gas. some small airfields have avgas in the 100-104 octane rating, no ethanol. we have one station north of town that sells 92 oct straight gas.

nowthen.. the rest of our stations are selling e10 or e15, in octane ranges from 87 to 93.

ethanol, besides having less btu and being a bit costly to produce.. since we use a foodstuff like corn, just happens to also be an octane modifier.

other , smarter countries don't take a first run food source like corn ( human, and animal feed main consituants ).. they use a byproduct like depleted sugarcan pressings.. or a WEED like switchgrass to make ethanol. both are much more economically productive at making biomass for ethanol, than CORN

leave it to our govt to choose a crop that is a near 100% staple to all animal and human feeds.. and choose that as a fuel supply... thus the more corn used for fuel.. the higher feed prices go. since ethanol production went into swing uyears ago.. i have seen animal feed prices nearly DOUBLE.. that's in under 2 decades...

soundguy

You need to do some research on the production of ethanol. Yes, it is made of corn, but NOT the corn that humans consume. The by-product of ethanol production is DST, or dried distiller grains, which is then fed to livestock, and feeding DST to livestock is pretty much the same as feeding the actual corn and gets the same results, so it's pretty much like having your corn and eating it too. Also, quite a few of the subsidies are now being removed because they are no longer needed. The ethanol producers are now able to manufacture ethanol profitably with no need for any government subsidies.

 

[souNdguy]

i know our diesel is like that. a large bulk distribuitor fills all the truck distrubution sites of different brands..

can't see paying more for a name when it came out of the same bbl...

 

[souNdguy]

and you may not be seeing the forest thru the trees.

what do you think happens when a guy growing 30000ac of corn for human consumption changes over to grouwing a different corn for ethanol production.

it creates a supply void.. which then creats a price ump due to constant demand and lack of supply.

it's all connected. no free lunch here, and they ain't making land anymore.. and you can't grow it in a patch of sky.. so if resources are switched to ethanol production.. those resources CAME FROM somewhere else.

and WHY CORN.. switchgrass is a better biomass.

yes.. i HAVE done soem research on it. and anyone that owns an animal that eats feed that has corn in it knows that in the last 12ys bagged feed has jumped 100% in price. that's not cost of living and inflation.. that's a direct impact ( even if indirect usage) of ethanol production...

my feed bill can proove it...

my best friend is married to a gal from south america and goes over alot. their ethanol production setups make ours look like hillbilly voodoo economics...

we have so many existing byproducts that could be also diverted to e-production that we don't do that it makes us the lauging stock of the green energy world...

soundguy

 

[BillM (OH)]

You are correct SouNder! The only thing you have left out is the efforts on the part of our politicians to get the farm vote to keep them in office. Corn is NOT by far the best bio for producing ethanol - sugar cane beats it about 5 to 1, as do others including switchgrass. As more acreage is devoted to corn for ethanol, many feed and corn based groceries (corn syrup is in lots of products) have nearly doubled in price. The politicians have recently increased the ethanol content in fuel to 15%, so the beat goes on!

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 17:07:25 05/30/12) You are correct SouNder! The only thing you have left out is the efforts on the part of our politicians to get the farm vote to keep them in office. Corn is NOT by far the best bio for producing ethanol - sugar cane beats it about 5 to 1, as do others including switchgrass. As more acreage is devoted to corn for ethanol, many feed and corn based groceries (corn syrup is in lots of products) have nearly doubled in price. The politicians have recently increased the ethanol content in fuel to 15%, so the beat goes on!

guess it is working...sounds like they got rusty's Iowa/corn state vote. he he he

 

[Bob Harvey]

Right on all points. In Brazil they have been making/using Ethanol for 30 yrs. or more. All from sugar cane (the most efficient use of bio-mass -extract suger/make alcohol - use the stalks for fuel to run the plant). There was a glitch when oil prices dropped, but they have vehicles that run on much higher %'s than here. Corn starch and by products can be found in ALMOST everything. Can't imagine any corruption regarding this issue. HaH

 

[fixerupper]

Corn for human consumption? probably 99.9% of the corn grown in the US is not a consumable by humans type corn. The only corn grown for human consumption is sweet corn for fresh use or white corn that is milled for corn-based foods like tortilas. Corn is used for ethanol production because of it's easy storage and handling properties. Yes, switch or any other green matter can be used, but it has to be cut, dried and baled. Then those bulky bales have to be stored under a tarp or very large roof to stay dry until used. The bales have to be loaded on a flatbed, and strapped down. At the ethanol plant, storing and handling them is bulky. During all this handling there is material loss, from broken bales, bale bottoms sticking to the ground and whatever. There is practically no loss handling shelled corn. I'm involved with a pilot project using corn fodder for making ethanol. It's baled into big square or big round bales, stacked on the end of the field and then I load them on trucks at a later date. I can tell you from first hand experience, handling shelled corn is MUCH easier and cheaper to handle. In two years, when my contract is up, they'll have to pay me really well to get me to re-sign.

The city slickers who think they know it all about ethanol don't have a clue as to what the production side of the feed material is all about. When we grow corn, we have a product that can be used in many markets. It's a very safe crop to grow financially. If one market goes bad or doesn't need it,such as ethanol, we have another market to go to, like a feed mill. If we dedicate high priced farm land to a crop that is only used for ethanol production, we will go down the tubes if the one and only market we have for that product dries up. We aren't going to dedicate land for growing a one-use-only crop anytime soon! Jim

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 10:42:00 05/30/12) " The octane of the blend can be boosted with additives (ethanol is one such additive)"

So, higher octane does not usually mean less ethanol in the blend? And, in fact, probably more?

No - just one of those annoying facts - adding ethanol to gasoline boosts the octane. Racers have known that for a very long time and there other ways to do it. In the US ethanol is used as an oxygenate - not an octane booster. That part is just gravy. Obviously the corn growers like it. Not sure why anyone else really cares. Personally I don't give a rat's a$$ - may take a while but ultmately the market not the politicians will sort it out. I doubt it has any real impact in the cost of my tortilla....

TOH

 

[Ken(Ark)]

(quoted from post at 13:31:59 05/30/12) all depends on who's selling and producing it.

you can get high and low octane straight gas .. marina's here sell 93octane, non ethanol gas. some small airfields have avgas in the 100-104 octane rating, no ethanol. we have one station north of town that sells 92 oct straight gas........

soundguy

I am loosely thinking that the word "ethanol" is what is throwing the hound off of the scent .

The craapy gas is not from the ethanol as it is not the culprit for boiling gas but the additives . The alcohol is probably beneficial ???? Maybe its the other substances that are fouling , corroding , and gumming up fuel systems and ethanol is getting the blame ???

I am kinda tired and sleepy , but those are my thoughts on the matter .

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 00:40:14 05/31/12)

(quoted from post at 13:31:59 05/30/12) all depends on who's selling and producing it.

you can get high and low octane straight gas .. marina's here sell 93octane, non ethanol gas. some small airfields have avgas in the 100-104 octane rating, no ethanol. we have one station north of town that sells 92 oct straight gas........

soundguy

I am loosely thinking that the word "ethanol" is what is throwing the hound off of the scent .

The craapy gas is not from the ethanol as it is not the culprit for boiling gas but the additives . The alcohol is probably beneficial ???? Maybe its the other substances that are fouling , corroding , and gumming up fuel systems and ethanol is getting the blame ???

I am kinda tired and sleepy , but those are my thoughts on the matter .

Like most things ethanol has it's down side as well - definitly shortens the tank life of the mix if nothing else.

TOH

 

[souNdguy]

i take offense at being called a city slicker who knows nothing about corn.

I know my feed bill DOUBLED when they got the bright idea in washington to stick it to us with low btu / water hungry ethanol.

i take your post with a grain of salt seeing there is a hand in the back pocket so to speak.

Bill has it right in the other post. using that product has had an economical detrimental effect that has rippled thru society on many levels.

I won't continue to further discuss this topic here with you if you are going to toss out insults.

as far as I'm concerned.. this portion of the thread is closed and i will not respond to further replies.

soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. same here.. seeing an increase push to go from 10 to 15.

those that have the corn subsidies ( ie.. govt redistribuiting our wealth ) are all for it.

too many other, better ways to do it, using products that are not found in 90% of other products that SOMETHING eats...


soundguy

 

[souNdguy]

yep.. corn starch and corn syrup constitute addatives to a huge percentage of foodstuffs.


and ditto on the plants.. it's a VERY well thought out setup from the sugar cane....

my buddy just shakes his head when we talk about our corn alcohol setup here. IMHO.. whiskey is the best corn alcohol..

 

[souNdguy]

corn's just a poor way to do it in the big scheme of things. sugar cane is awesome.. so is switchgrass. south america figured this out decades ago... they laugh at our use of corn for ethanol...

soundguy

 

[Bruce(VA)]

This movie presents a very interesting perspective on corn in the US.

I wonder........has any Presidential candidate who opposed corn subsidies, D or R, ever won the Iowa caucus? Just askin......
King Corn

 

[souNdguy]

probably not..

 

[BrianJasper co. Ia]

Soundguy, you do realize that making ethanol from corn is only taking a part of the grain that really isn't beneficial to any animal don't you? The ethanol refiners then sell what's known as Dried Distiller's Grain or DDG for short. It makes better animal feed than plain corn.
There's alot of misinformation on ethanol out there, the same as the Pink Slime controversy...

 

[souNdguy]

somehow I don't think that's the entire story.

feed prices more than doubled whenthe ethanol push happened.

you can 'bank' on that.

no speculation.

I can post reciepts from years past taxes and stuff I have now. at a certain point feed jumped 2-3$ a bag in 1 year. answer from all the distibuitors was corn prices soared.

 

[wisbaker]

I took an energy in agriculture class 'bout 30 years ago. We discussed and studied BIO-fuels.
The down side to ethanol production from corn- making ethanol from corn takes an extra step of
hydrolization or some such thing, this is required to break the corn starches into simple
sugars to feed the fermentation process and makes ethanol from corn less energy efficient than
ethanol derived from sugar cane. Another factor to consider is corn takes nitrogen
fertilizer, in the 80's the main feed stock for nitrogen fertilizer was natural gas, don't
know if that's changed or not. Other issues of concern at that time is regular gasoline
engines don't make the most efficient use of ethanol, there was some research/engineering for
alcohol fueled tractors using a diesel tractor with a spacer between the head and block and a
carburetor and ignition system added. At that time our ag-engineers felt bio diesel had better
prospects, but unfortunately this was the same time when the boys across town at Oldsmobile
were working overtime to destroy the US diesel car market so the bio-diesel didn't have the
glamour that gasohol did.

 

[36 Coupe]

A bag of layer pellets has doubled in price since gas has ethanol added to it.The stickers on gas pumps that say enriched with ethanol make me laugh.You get a fuel with less btu per gallon.Im waiting for the BATF to lay a 9.00 per gallon tax on ethanol fuel.