Overhaul sleeve piston assemblies

[tomstractorsandtoys]

How many of you when overhauling an engine and the company sends you assemblies with the piston and rings already in the sleeve just put them in the tractor without taking them apart? Just pull piston down enough to install wrist pin. I always take mine apart. Yesterday at a friends shop he opened a new Reliance engine kit and three of the six piston assemblies had 2 rings lined up with and on one all three were almost in a line. Tom

 

[SVcummins]

Always pulled em apart to check . Never seen a problem like that with the John Deere kits

 

[rustred]

I would be checking them. How do u know they even have all the rings on them. Can u imagine redoing a caterpillar.

 

[Bob Bancroft]

I don't like that at all. Just send me the parts. Thankfully, I don't do much any more. I'm trying to remember the company name which messed me up on the last engine rebuild. Reliance sounds familiar, but I don't know. I know it came from Ag-kits/Syracuse Crank.

 

[ss55]

Shipping and packaging costs can be significant. The pistons might be shipped inside the sleeves to reduce the size (volume) of the shipping box and to reduce the amount of shipping pads required inside the box.

 

[used red MN]

Not to foo foo John Deere I would be the first to say their parts probably have a near top level of quality. A guy I watch on YouTube that does repair in Oregon showed this. In a recent video he was showing that he pulled the pistons out of the liners to double check, this was for a JD but says he does it in all cases. I can’t remember if he said it was him or someone he knew that pulled a Deere assembly apart and found a broken ring. Anything made by humans can have flaws.

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

I got a set from Relaince. Pistons with pins were in the sleeves but the rings were in a small box on top of the sleeve, Do you mean the rings were on the pistons? I wouldn't trust that the bores were properly cleaned after honing. Instruction will tell you to wash them out good with detergent and hot water.

 

[Mike(NEOhio)]

You should be checking the ring gaps first anyway.

 

[Steve@Advance]

I don't put any faith in the position of end gaps.

There is nothing to hold them, they are free to rotate wherever they want. I know, stagger them in installation, but what happens when it is running?

What is important is piston skirt clearance, round, ring end gap, land width clearance, pin clearance, everything you would normally check on a rebuild plus any weird manufacturing defects.

I once bought a new, from the dealer, 250 chevy 6 block with pistons and rings. The pistons had to come out to have the pins pressed. Pushed all but one out, it had to be hammered out! Press fit in the block! Sent the whole mess back for another.

 

[SVcummins]

Never trust anyone’s work . The John Deere kits had a lot bigger snap rings for the piston pins than the might fit kits and they weren’t that much more money when I did mine . Had three tractors in the shop two of us bought the Deere kits and one bought the cheap One

 

[wore out]

Steve, I am pretty much in agreement with your comments.

As to why the pistons are pre-loaded into the sleeves I would ASSUME the manufacturer is well aware that the skill levels of the ultimate purchasers will vary and not everyone can use a ring compressor successfully and install the pistons without breaking any rings.

Any rings broken and noticed/found, whether before final assembly or after the engine is run obviously contribute to customer dissatisfaction and warranty claims.

 

[Olliejunkie]

(quoted from post at 12:12:37 02/07/21) How many of you when overhauling an engine and the company sends you assemblies with the piston and rings already in the sleeve just put them in the tractor without taking them apart? Just pull piston down enough to install wrist pin. I always take mine apart. Yesterday at a friends shop he opened a new Reliance engine kit and three of the six piston assemblies had 2 rings lined up with and on one all three were almost in a line. Tom

A guy on Facebook got a kit with several different kinds of pistons. It was reliance parts but from a different supplier.

 

[jimg.allentown]

Steve, the position of the end gaps is very important. Line them all up and the engine will burn oil. That is a proven fact.

Also, they do NOT turn in the bores when the engine is running. I have no idea where you got that idea, but I can assure you they do not turn. They stay right where you put them.

 

[wore out]

(quoted from post at 16:55:16 02/07/21) Steve, the position of the end gaps is very important. Line them all up and the engine will burn oil. That is a proven fact.

Also, they do NOT turn in the bores when the engine is running. I have no idea where you got that idea, but I can assure you they do not turn. They stay right where you put them.

LOL!

 

[Welding man]

I am a Reliance Dealer and have had a lot better luck with their parts than most suppliers. Some of their kits come with the rings installed on the pistons inside the sleeves, some don't.Seems to be mostly John Deere stuff. We also remove them and check everything before installation. I personally like to plastiguage the rod bearings before installing the rings, then I install the rings, lube everything reinstall and torque. I have torn down 2 engines lately that were using a lot of oil that had all the ring gaps lined up. Not worn out just put together wrong.

 

[Steve@Advance]

Jim, engines I have taken apart, I find the gaps all over the place, some lined up, some not.

Three piece oil rings need to be assembled with the gaps staggered as per the instructions. Do they stay in that position? Again, some do some don't.

If rings don't turn, why do 2 cycles have to be pinned in place?

 

[SVcummins]

All you get by trusting someone else’s work is a whole lot more work

 

[pete 23]

Years ago perfect circle ran some tests on ring rotation and found that the top ring turned several revolutions in their test. I don't know how they monitored it but they had some type of equipment that would sense what ever they inserted into the ring.

Your rings with expanders under them or ones with the expanders or tension device and rails don't really move or very little according to perfect circle.

Perfect Circle used to give seminars on their products at the local parts stores.

 

[jimg.allentown]

Steve, as a retired dealership mechanic, I had access to Ford engineering department. We tore down engines that had been consuming oil, and found in nearly every case that the ring gaps were lined up. Those that were not had other obvious reasons to use oil.

The position that you find the ring gaps in does not prove that they moved in operation. Imprint of the ID marks on the piston's ring lands is proof that they stay where they were initially installed. Also keep in mind that there is no exact position for the rings to be in when installed. Different people on the assembly lines tend to do things differently. Many times not even consistently one particular way.

Oil ring gaps are always staggered when installed. If you find one that is not, does that mean that it moved? Or did the installer not follow instructions when the rings were originally installed?

As far as 2-stroke engines go, some are pinned while some are not. I have taken a few apart that were not pinned. and if you go back far enough, you will find that there were 4-stroke engines that had piston rings pinned in place. Hudson comes to mind. There were probably others as well.

 

[pete 23]

When I worked at John Deere dealer we pulled the pistons because they had run into problems with preassembled sleeve and pistons before. I never found any problems on the ones I pulled though that I remember.

Also, it is a whole lot easier to check the sleeve fit in the bore without a piston in it before you install the o-ring in the block. And speaking of o rings in the block, those grooves in the block, they were a problem on the older tractors. No easy fix either.

Both IH and Case you could repair with factory supplied parts. Not easy, but could do it. Never had to repair a IH block but of the few Case tractors we overhauled, we had to do some. Sent them out to do it.

 

[bc]

(quoted from post at 14:22:16 02/07/21) I don't like that at all. Just send me the parts. Thankfully, I don't do much any more. I'm trying to remember the company name which messed me up on the last engine rebuild. Reliance sounds familiar, but I don't know. I know it came from Ag-kits/Syracuse Crank.

When I was looking for pistons for my 2606 c221 I called and checked on line with over a dozen parts suppliers who show in stock till you call and they have to call you back saying they can't get them which I already knew since my engine rebuilder uses Reliance.

About all of them were drop shipping from Reliance. Noticed that the Reliance part number was a 7 in front of the IH part numbers without the R number on the end. Most of those part suppliers were listing Reliance numbers online which told the story. Two I did order from drop shipped from Reliance. Sometimes the pictures of the sleeve and piston kits were the exact same generic picture that Reliance uses.