Piston Rings in 1950's

[Moonlite37]

From 1953 Until 1960 I worked in a factory and workers would say, Saturday I am going to put a set of rings in my old Chevy They could buy the rings for about $12 and about $5at Western Auto for a set of gaskets for an in frame repair and they would be prepared for a couple years. Those days are past and never hear of piston rings being replaced. These fellows never removed any cylinder ridge and in most engines just removed a thin ring and main shim or placed paper between insert and connecting rod.I assume they are built better now because many good engine can go for 200 thousand with no engine work. We had a 235 Chevy engine that had rings replaced at a local shop for between $55 and $60 with 55,000 miles.There was a legend that a local truck went 120.000 with no repair, but seemed unbelievable.

 

[steve_in_mo]

Uncle's 1948 Ford went 100,000 with no repair.
Unheard of back then.

 

[Janicholson]

The rings were often just cast iron with little or no special coatings. oil rings were one piece with slots for oil to go through. If the rings woe out before the bore, the ridge was probably not radical enough to cause problems. Though ridge reamers were commonly used. End gaps were abundant and normal oil consumption was quite high. The oil was also not very capable of dealing with sludge, particles, cleaning, viscosity stability, and heat. Piston expansion control and roundness when at operating temp were marginal. Jim

 

[Hobo,NC]

In the mid 60's a neighbor was always doing engine work under a shad tree. He would let me clean the piston ring groves. I thought he was god. I got to do plenty of ring/valve jobs I would say by the late 70's it all went away and became full blown rebuilds. Think about this you could not get away ringing a 100K engine anymore like you could a 50K engine. On a 100K engine the rod is worn out as other parts they would come back to haunt ya. You could ring a 50K engine to get it to 100K but lost your arse ringing a 100K engine to get it to 200K.

In the early 80's a complete engine rebuild ran about $800 SHOCK! Transmission rebuilds at that time ran about 250/350 and I made good money at it.

By the 90's engines moved toward 3K and transmissions 800 to 1000.

By 2000 engines worked there way toward 4K and transmissions in the 2K plus range.

The last few engine I replaced exceeded 5K a few passed the 8K mark. Transmissions can easily get north of 4K.

I don't dig deep into either anymore. Quite a few in the business started to listen to me and dropped major engine and transmission work unless it was backed with a car manufacture warranty. Sooner are later you will lose your shirt let the manufacture deal with it : ) Unless the builder has the capability to warrant the part local in house I don't deal with them life is good.

Question, as this is moving into lawyer money would you ask a lawyer to build a engine for you...

 

[jal-SD]

Pull the pan off & take a shim out of each rod on the old 213 Chevy engines w/babbitt rods when you put rings in it. Then you were good for another 50,000 or 60,000 thousand miles. Drove the '51 I inherited from my grandfather when he passed in '61 as I graduated HS. It had 23,000 or so. Ringed it twice like that w/valves ground at second ring job. It had about181,000 on it when I quit driving it in '71 because the floor pans had rusted out. Wish I still had it to restore.

 

[Steve@Advance]

The 50's were a little before my time, but not a lot had changed by the 70's.

I wouldn't even try to guess how many old engines I did ring, bearing, cam and lifters, and work the heads on back in the 70's-80's.

Hone them out, clean everything up, put in soft iron rings, and buy another 50,000 miles.

Sometimes there were more problems than it was feasible to repair, that usually meant a salvage yard engine. I had better success with those than rebuilt engines. And the 'Me Goodwrench' new engines were reasonably priced, little difference than a complete rebuild without all the work!

Many of my customers were elderly or low income.

 

[matthies]

Had a friend that worked in a Chevy shop and rebuilt engine and trans for me when I was younger. He is in his early 60s now. Anyway he rebuilt a 350 chevy and knurled the pistons, ever hear of that?

 

[Goose]

I never saw much of it on cars, but it used to be fairly common when overhauling an outboard boat motor.

 

[Janicholson]

A knurled set ran 50 Thousand miles in a 292 Y block I owned. Cheap fix for a tighter fit. Jim

 

[CaseChev]

Back in the old days, I did lots of piston knurling on low budget rebuilds. Get the knurled pistons back from the machine shop.....fit them......knock the knurling slightly with crocus cloth to get just the right skirt clearance.......great process and it worked.

 

[rustred]

yes to enlarge the skirt, even in automotive classes they talked of knurling pistons back in the seventies. and by the time any of them old vehicles made it to 100, 000 miles the whole thing was worn out and rusted out. now a days 100,000 is peanuts. and they say they dont makem like they used to, that is correct they are made better!

 

[37 chief]

I did a few of those ring jobs. I had a 48 ford coup back in the day. I thought the rod bearings were bad. They all had spin in the rod. That is how ford designed the rod bearings on that car. Seamed like a good idea. Stan

 

[560Dennis]

Cant ever remember the ring jobs .
I do remember the flat head mercury engines would not hold up long at interstate highway speed . Always blew up motor coming back from UP on Ohio turnpike at Norwalk Ohio. Did that twice .same spot .

 

[Geo-TH,In]

When cars went to electronic fuel controls the right amount of fuel was used.
Carburetors would add too much fuel and wash the oil off the cylinders and cause excessive cylinder/ring wear.
You could tell when the carb needs rebuilt, your eyes would burn because there was too much raw gas coming out of the exhaust pipe..

How many remember auto chokes sticking, flooding the engine.
Then you removed the air filter, used a large screwdriver to hold the choke open to start the engine??

We may have better metals today.
Back when I started driving engines with 100k were getting a complete oil change every 1000 miles using one quart of oil/200 miles.

I knew a kid that worked at a service station.
His idea of changing oil was bringing home the oil he removed from a car when he was changing the oil on and using it in his car.. Changing oil from one car to another car.

At 100k I would have cylinders bored to 50 thousands over and buy new pistons and rings and do a complete overhaul, not just rings. $800 do a complete overhaul on a V8.

Electronic fuel controls are why we have better mph and longer engine life.

 

[560Dennis]

My opinion that knurled pistons were superior . Trapped oil would eliminate reduce skirt slap and reduce friction, pistons rode on more of fluid surface. Depends on the knurled to .

 

[Richard G.]

Shop near here did that on a Ford diesel a few years ago.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 08:31:41 10/15/22) Had a friend that worked in a Chevy shop and rebuilt engine and trans for me when I was younger. He is in his early 60s now. Anyway he rebuilt a 350 chevy and knurled the pistons, ever hear of that?

Yes and how about shimming the rings. I remember when knurling the valve guides was a popular thing to do. I bought the tools to do it but that repair faded out fast.

When the labor rate started creeping up it became more profitable to let a machine shop handle this. Another thing that killed in house rebuilding engine parts suppliers cut off small garages they would only sale to a parts house. The extra profit from the parts was gone you could better yourself doing more profitable work while someone else did the machine work.

If you kept it all in house At the end of the month your total sales were higher but you profit margins took a big hit. Back in the day I doubt they looked at productivity as closely as we do today. A major engine job can tie up a bay for weeks that same bay you can service 30 cars in the same time frame.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Does Jasper still sell rebuilt engines?
Many local part stores sold Jasper engines.

 

[teddy52food]

Never heard of .050 over. .030, .040, and .060 were common.

 

[Hobo,NC]

(quoted from post at 18:38:17 10/15/22) Does Jasper still sell rebuilt engines?
Many local part stores sold Jasper engines.

Yes but you are all in if you go their.

Whuts'dat you say all in.

If the engine has an issue you are stuck with fixing their fudge up for peanuts. You pays your money and live by their commands that's no way to live.

 

[sms]

I knew a mechanic that worked in a GM
dealership, all he did was rebuild
engines. Book time was 22 hours, he could
do it in 11 hours,got paid book time.
This would have been the eighties

 

[TomA in CA]

Chrome rings were a big deal in the late fifties. I had a lot of trouble with rings not seating and burning oil. I later years I blamed the chrome rings for this. Soft cast were probably better.

 

[Jimmydog]

George, not to quibble with you, but you forgot to mention Statistical Process Control and Statistical Quality Control, as well as advancements in material sciences played a significant role in the improvement of engine performance and durability. SPC and SQC were pioneered by Japanese auto manufacturers in the seventies, and then adopted by American manufactures in the early eighties. Just saying.

 

[Gary Mitchell]

I pumped gas for a station part time in the late 60's. In regard to oil not being what it is today, we sold bulk recycled oil, (which came in 55-gallon drums), that we kept out at the pump in quart jars. Seems like it cost a dime/quart. It was popular with the oil burners. I think the outfit we got it from took used oil, filtered it, drained it into barrels and sold it back to independent stations like the one I worked at. So yeah, oil played a part. I think the current longevity is a combination of all the above including air cleaner and filtration improvement in general. gm

 

[Bill(Wis)]

''Perfect Circle'' was one of the names I used to see advertised a lot.

 

[sotxbill]

So many things happen... 70s gas shortage... force overdrive into cars. lower cruising rpms from 3500 to 2500. 80s designed with intake runners for more low end torque sooner and lower rpms..., overdrive rpms dropped to 2100 rpms now. Cutting rpm by 1/3 cut wear by over 1/2...... Gigantic heavy pistons that would bell out the cyls changed to aluminium tiny pistons at 1.3 the weight, off set rod ends to stop the piston twist at end of stroke, and even low friction coatings on the piston skirts.. Induction hardend cyl walls, HUGE change in oil and additives in the 80s and beyond.. All contribute to the longevity of the new engines even further. More gears in tranny to keep engines at or near lower 1700 rpm at peak torque also drive more gains. No need to ever run an engine over 2800 rpms in normal driving any more. Not uncommon to pull and engine down at 100,000 miles and still see the factory hone marks on the cyl walls and anti friction coating still on piston skirts. variable cam phasor timing is common, overhead cams, turbos and super chargers, precise timing and fuel mapping. Variable Fuel injection and hei ignition on each cyl. Even roller cams on stock engines for more hp from smaller sources.

Yes, we've come along way on my watch. From points and plugs every year! Valve job at 50k. Overhaul at 70k. Black streaks at all intersections where cars idled at red lights. Oil change every 3000 miles. Tires every 10k if you were lucky. Antifreeze change every year. brakes every two years. Clutch at 30k. Remember when I was a kid, and we had a cold front. Almost every car in the neighbor hood would not start. A few of the men had to go around an start these flooded cars for everyone else. Overheating in the summer time was normal. No power steering, No power brakes. most had manual choke and 2ply tires.

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Google Amazon 0.050 oversized pistons. Many more to choose from.

74 Piston Kit .050 Oversize, harley davidson

49-7005 - Indian .050 Oversize Piston Kit


Pro X 2-Stroke Piston (.050 Oversize) for 87-06 Yamaha Banshee

Wiseco Pro-Lite High-Compression 4-Stroke Piston (.050 Oversize / 10:1) Compatible With 06-17 HONDA CRF150F

My memory may not be as sharp as it used to be.
Usally 0.040 over wasn't enough to clean up the clyinder.
I would go 0.050 over

 

[Geo-TH,In]

Jimmydog, not to quibble with you.
You can have all you mentioned and you would not have what we
have today without electronic fuel injection. Too much gas makes
a lot power and it washes oil off the cylinders..

Will you agree that carburetors had to go to extend ring life?

I agree Japan showed Detroit how to make better cars.
Japan showed Harley they could make motorcycles that didn't drip
oil, have electric start and run circles around them for half
the price..

 

[fastfarmall]

You forgot about changing timing gears, they were shot at 50,55000,miles,in most 216's !!!

 

[I550]

Actually an American last name of Deming
taught the Japanese SPC after the war.
They had few natural resources so they
couldn't afford to make a lot of scrap. He
tried to work with American manufacturing
but the companies were more interested in
quantity than quality, at least until they
started losing market share.

 

[Billy NY]

Black streaks at traffic light intersections, reminds me of the interstates, highways etc. late 60's early 70's, I recall the concrete pavement in these roads all had a dark streak down the middle.

 

[rlp in Co.]

I had the same problem with chrome rings!. The last engine I ringed has chrome or only rings and it uses a little oil, but not too much. Very disappointed!

 

[rlp in Co.]

Moly not only!

 

[Jimmydog]

George, regarding carbs having to go?....I'm not sure I agree. My heart says no, but my head says yes, after all why is every car built these days fuel injected? Can't imagine it's just because they're cheaper than carbs. All I was getting at; is I wouldn't hang it all on that one peg.

By the way there is a really neat video on the other YT showing a one lung four stroke engine with acrylic block. It's filmed with a high-speed camera, and you can actually see the motion and interactions of the oil and gas in between the piston rings. Worth a look.

Anyway, I enjoy your postings, keep up the rabble rousing, this place would be boring without you.

 

[KLPinNC]

I knurled several sets of pistons when I worked for NAPA in the 70s. Wish I had that machine today

 

[Hobo,NC]

Are the smell of GUNK. some photos from a Motor Age mag 1955