planter pto pump..will it work?

[johnwayne360]

Im interested in changing planter tractors. The kicker being im using a vacuum planter, and all the newer smaller tractors use open center hydraulics for the most part. I cant find a pto pump off a deere planter. However, i can find several off older ih planters. I believe they should work, the principle is the same. Just checking to make sure there is nothing im not thinking about that would cause problems. tia

 

[Bob Bancroft]

My old White 5100 used air planter came with a pump/reservoir. I never used it. Although it was kind of considered a no-no, I ran it off the second remote on my JD2520. I just bought a new JD1750 vacuum planter. 2520 seems to run that ok also. If I remember right, saved me about $1000 for a new PTO pump. That's all I know. Best of luck.

 

[Too Far Gone]

I think the IH pump will work.If I remember right I think on ours you could adjust the pressure too

 

[Bob]

It will be a good idea to plumb in an oil cooler to keep oil temperature down.

Is there an air discharge point from the vacuum fan(s) that would provide airflow like IH did by mounting an oil cooler over the intake to the planter fan?

BTW, WHY can't you operate it off of an open center hydraulics tractor... we used to run all sorts of planter and granular applicator fans of of Versatile and other tractors with open center hydraulics.

 

[johnwayne360]

i didnt say you couldnt run a fan off of an open center tractor..however the manual states that you could ruin the hydraulics on an open center by using it this way. That being said..i know of people who do it. I prefer to stay on the safe side.

 

[Bob]

Yeah, I think the warning about the open center systems would mostly have to do with adequate oil cooling, which, as I said before, will be important even with your PTO pump.

 

[buickanddeere]

What kind of tractor and what kind of planter? What volume and pressure is required?

 

[Bob]

Wassamatter with you, Buick, think'in he should flesh out his question with some pertinent facts?

MUCH better to keep the helpers guessing!

 

[johnwayne360]

#1 i dont think it matters much the type of tractor as long as its either open center or closed center, as to what ive been told. Besides, i havent even decided that yet, im still looking at options from a 6405 deere(load sensing) to a 7740 ford(open center) to a tym, and so on and so on.
#2 the planter is a 4 row 7200 vacuum. Now if the planter pump wont run that it must be a piece of junk. Thanks for your reply.

 

[RodinNS]

You'd really need to get down to the flow/pressure specs needed for your planter and compare them to the IH planter's you're looking at robbing if you go that route. They'd need to be within the same range.

I guess the question I'd be asking or wondering about is why you wouldn't just run it off the SCV's on a new tractor if you're doing that now. Most 1/2" valves flow about 16 GPM per pair. The Ford shouldn't have any problem doing that if the planter is using most of it's flow. The problem you get into on the open center Ford's is when you try to choke them down and they have to dump a significant portion of their pump flow at pressure across the unloading valve...
You might also want to double check and see if the 7740 isn't a CCLS tractor to start with... Many, if not most around here were. If it's an 'SLE' with the 16x16 transmission, or even a 24x24, it should be CCLS. A 12x12 or the 8x2 would be open center. Those are 'SL' and 'S' models. The 'SLE' will have no problem doing what you want in running the planter on the SCV.

Another option I'd look at would be PTO driving the fan. The planter I use is set up like that and just geared to run the tractor at mid-speed on the PTO. Something to think about...

Rod

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Rod,
I had a JD 1440 planter with hydraulic drive for fertilizer, and now have a set of JD 825 roll over plows. both are set up with a bypass line from the pressure (up) line to the return (down) line. There is a flow control valve in that bypass line. This allows the flow rate to be adjusted at the implement without restricting the flow from the open center hydraulics on the tractor! I'm wondering if this would also work for the application being discussed here. I know that I never had a problem with the fert drive on the planter bothering the open center hydraulics on my former Ford 4000, and that regulator valve controlled the fert app rate as well! As for the plow rotator, I've only used it on my 5610 with the closed center remotes, however, I have found that the plows will only rotate properly when the flow control on the tractor remote is set clear to "turtle".
Those 825 plows were originally on a JD 520, and designed to work with that system. I would be glad to hear your thoughts on all this "rattling on" I've put out there!
Dave

 

[buickanddeere]

Pump motor doesn't care if it's open or closed center as long as oil flow and psi meets spec.
It's the valving and control(s) that matter.
Any tractor with enough capacity will work just fine.

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

(quoted from post at 17:38:08 11/30/09) Pump motor doesn't care if it's open or closed center as long as oil flow and psi meets spec.
It's the valving and control(s) that matter.
Any tractor with enough capacity will work just fine.

Again, I may be off base here, but I'm suspecting that to avoid problems with an open center system that system needs to be able to operate "full flow". [u:d872559811]If[/u:d872559811] the system can operate "full flow" without over revving the fan -- no problem! If not then the regulated by-pass [u:d872559811]should [/u:d872559811]take care of any excess flow, thus no problem!
Awaiting comments from those more knowledgable!
Dave

 

[RodinNS]

Yeah.. you can use those PC (pressure compensated) flow control valves to control flow OK. The problem is that if you have any kind of pressure requirement on the machine... and a flow requirement much below the nominal flow rate of the tractor, you end up expending that 'extra' flow at whatever the demand pressure is across that flow control. In short, they generate heat. In a bad situation they generate a LOT of heat. If you were only dumping 2 gpm into the return line it probably wouldn't be a big issue but dumping 10 gpm into the return while having 5 on the controlled flow line would generate a lot of heat. Basically... if you hear that valve hissing and whizzing, it's making a lot of heat.
The difference with a CCLS system on the tractor is that demand is only placed on the pump for the actual flow required. The pressure compensating function works such that it maintains a pressure differential... and signals the pump to only stroke as much as needed. This is different to the true closed center system like deere once used because that system had no PC feature. If the operating pressure dropped below the rated nominal system pressure the pump would go to full stroke to plug the leak. Thus they became famous for their overheating and high pressure leaks... Much the same idea as the Ford dumping full flow across it's unloading valve at pressure. Something to avoid if you can...

Rod

 

[johnwayne360]

The deere vacuum pump im told takes a max of 5gpm, which im assuming would cause an overheating problem?

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Rod,
I'm not positive, but I believe the valves that I dealt with are simple flow controls that basicly are on/off screw type valves that restrict the flow [u:c602b6d35a]only[/u:c602b6d35a] by increasing or decreasing the size of the opening in the valve, and are [u:c602b6d35a]not [/u:c602b6d35a]pressure activated!
The John Deere part # for the valve on my plow is AA 10696 A (as seen in parts catalog PC605 for JD 825 plows). this [i:c602b6d35a]appears[/i:c602b6d35a] to be a simple 1/2 inch gate valve. The valve on the 1440 planter was (as I recollect) a more elaborate flow control valve, but still [u:c602b6d35a]not[/u:c602b6d35a] pressure activated. I can't elaborate on that valve as the planter and manuals were sold 20 years ago!
HTH, Dave

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 18:03:08 11/30/09)

(quoted from post at 17:38:08 11/30/09) Pump motor doesn't care if it's open or closed center as long as oil flow and psi meets spec.
It's the valving and control(s) that matter.
Any tractor with enough capacity will work just fine.

Again, I may be off base here, but I'm suspecting that to avoid problems with an open center system that system needs to be able to operate "full flow". [u:6f5354f5a2]If[/u:6f5354f5a2] the system can operate "full flow" without over revving the fan -- no problem! If not then the regulated by-pass [u:6f5354f5a2]should [/u:6f5354f5a2]take care of any excess flow, thus no problem!
Awaiting comments from those more knowledgable!
Dave

Most people here would bet on myself rather than you to figure hydraulic flow, capacity power etc.

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

B&D,
Let me see if I'm understanding you right! You're saying Just pull the handle back and let her rip, she'll be fine? Just how do you deal with a hydraulic system thats putting out 15 gpm at 2100 psi, and a hydraulic motor that only needs 10 gpm to run at rated speed? The way I understand hydraulics, that motor is going to run at 150% of rated speed OR you're going to have to lose 5 gpm flow SOMEWHERE! please correct me if I'm wrong!
Dave

 

[johnwayne360]

and here i thought id get bonus points for actually reading the manual.

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

(quoted from post at 17:38:08 11/30/09) Pump motor doesn't care if it's open or closed center as long as oil flow and psi meets spec.
It's the valving and control(s) that matter.
Any tractor with enough capacity will work just fine.

B&D,
I agree with what you are saying here "-- as long as oil flow and psi meets spec."
My point is, how do we get to "meets spec."
The solutions that I have presented should allow the tractor to meet the flow specs of the planter.
As Rod stated earlier, the problem comes when the flow from an open center system needs to be restricted to meet spec. I am just trying to offer a solution to that particular issue!

Now, back to my old JD 1440 planter --- It's operators manual had instructions for the plumbing of the hydraulics for [u:5c14783ead]both[/u:5c14783ead] open center and closed center tractor systems. The open center showed the by-pass line with the regulator valve in that line which allowed restricting the flow to the planter [u:5c14783ead]without[/u:5c14783ead] restricting the flow from the tractor! With the closed center system the regulator valve was in the line from the tractor which [u:5c14783ead]did[/u:5c14783ead] restrict the flow from the tractor, [i:5c14783ead]but[/i:5c14783ead] the tractor system compensated!

The one other part to this equation is the flow rate from the tractor with the open center system would have to be constant, which means a throttle setting would have to be pre-determined and maintained.

Are we on the same page now? Dave

 

[RodinNS]

I can"t say that I"ve ever dealt with a flow control that wasn"t a simple flow restrictor in one way or another. The main difference with pressure compensation is that it allows a variable displacement pump to destroke so as to only provide the required flow WHERAS a simple closed center system will stroke to full flow if there is any pressure drop below the nominal system pressure. CC (Closed Center) is normally stroked wheras CCLS (Closed Center Load Sensing) is normally destroked. CCLS simply goes to the required stroke at any pressure up to the nominal system pressure (high stand-by) and then goes back to low stand-by when demand ceases.

If you used a simple flow restrictor, that would work fine on a cylinder or something of short duration... and it would work fine on a CCLS system butit will still create heat in and open center or closed center system because the system is working to push full flow through the restrictor.
This kind of application where you"re running a motor is really where a CCLS system shines, and indeed what ti was designed to do on a tractor...

Rod

 

[buickanddeere]

(quoted from post at 23:38:52 11/30/09)
B&D,
Let me see if I'm understanding you right! You're saying Just pull the handle back and let her rip, she'll be fine? Just how do you deal with a hydraulic system thats putting out 15 gpm at 2100 psi, and a hydraulic motor that only needs 10 gpm to run at rated speed? The way I understand hydraulics, that motor is going to run at 150% of rated speed OR you're going to have to lose 5 gpm flow SOMEWHERE! please correct me if I'm wrong!
Dave

Apparently you chose NOT to read this portion of my reply.

"It's the valving and control(s) that matter".

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

(quoted from post at 17:38:33 12/01/09)

(quoted from post at 23:38:52 11/30/09)
B&D,
Let me see if I'm understanding you right! You're saying Just pull the handle back and let her rip, she'll be fine? Just how do you deal with a hydraulic system thats putting out 15 gpm at 2100 psi, and a hydraulic motor that only needs 10 gpm to run at rated speed? The way I understand hydraulics, that motor is going to run at 150% of rated speed OR you're going to have to lose 5 gpm flow SOMEWHERE! please correct me if I'm wrong!
Dave

Apparently you chose NOT to read this portion of my reply.

"It's the valving and control(s) that matter".

B&D, It would appear to me that [i:e4549c14d7]you[/i:e4549c14d7] did not read my post of this morning (12/01) at 8:19 AM!
I [u:e4549c14d7]agree[/u:e4549c14d7] that the valving and controls matter! I'm [u:e4549c14d7]trying[/u:e4549c14d7] to offer a solution that will work for a cost of less than 4 figures! My solution does depend on valving and controls! Dave

 

[Shetland Sheepdog]

Rod, thanks for the excellent explanation of the three basic types of hydraulic system. I now have a better understanding of how they each work! I have extensive user experience with "OC" & "CCLS", having owned and operated both older and newer Ford tractors. I have not had experience with "CC" systems like JD's.

Now, to get back to trying to explain what I am suggesting to help with the original problem/question for both OC & CC systems.

#1 It would seem necessary that a uniform flow be established and maintained. The rate of flow is not important only that it stays constant.

#2 A by-pass line [i:44d5b0fc4c]around[/i:44d5b0fc4c] the hydraulic motor be established.

#3 A restricting valve be placed in this by-pass line for the purpose of controlling the amount of oil allowed to [i:44d5b0fc4c]by-pass[/i:44d5b0fc4c] the hydraulic motor.

Now the theory! Lets assume the tractor is providing 15 GPM flow And the motor on the planter requires 10 GPM flow to operate properly. Now we adjust the regulator valve in the [u:44d5b0fc4c]by-pass line[/u:44d5b0fc4c] to allow 5 GPM flow. This should allow the tractor hydraulic system to operate without activating the pressure relief valve and creating excess heat, [b:44d5b0fc4c]or[/b:44d5b0fc4c] overspeeding the hydraulic motor on the planter.

As I stated in an earlier post, I [u:44d5b0fc4c]know[/u:44d5b0fc4c] this will work, because I have planted 100's of acres of corn with a JD 1440 planter with hydraulic motor driven fertilizer feed behind a Ford 4000 with open center hydraulics!

Hopefully, I've made myself a little bit clearer! Dave

 

[RodinNS]

I'm not saying ti won't work. I know it will work as do you...
The problem that can develop is that if you require 10 gpm at say 1500 psi (obviously well below system pressure), you still have the 5 gpm you need to dump/bypass, whatever. The problem is dumping that 5 gpm... It's still dumped at 1500 psi to sump and that's where the heat is created.
In some systems that may be a problem and in other systems not so much.
I use a PC flow control valve on a manure spreader to regulate the push blade speed and it ends up dumping oil at probably close to 10 gpm. That's not a big factor on the spreader because it's only pushing 5-7 minutes out of every hour and there's lots of time to cool as I have long hauls.
For continous use on that tractor it would likely cause a problem. Even modest restrictions in my forage harvester's convertable (Deere CC) open center valve bank is enough to cause a lot of heat in that tractor in steady use. Enough that I've been thinking of ways to develop a load sensing system for the harvester...

If I was going to run a fan motor steady like that I think I'd just go out and buy a good sized hydraulic oil cooler and mount it in the return line on the planter. So long as it's good for a modest return pressure.... then put a one way (ball check) between the tractor and cooler so it can only feed one way.... otherwise it could blow the cooler.
That should take care of any heating concerns with ANY system and be a lot cheaper than working up a planter mounted hydraulic or PTO driven system.

Rod

 

[johnwayne360]

Rod, would that oil cooler have to be forced air? I wouldnt believe that just running the oil through a cooler without a fan would help much, but i m asking just to make sure.

 

[RodinNS]

It would be better if it had a small fan on it for sure, but if it"s a decent sized cooler then it probably wouldn"t matter a great deal. A cooler with a larger surface area and thinner core would likely diffuse a lot of heat without additional air flow. If not it shouldn"t be a big item to rig a junkyard special fan from a car. 10 bucks and some wire should look after it and have more than enough cfm...

Rod

 

[johnwayne360]

thanks for saving me a bunch of money!!!

 

[scot in pa]

There are usually IH hydraulic coolers on ebay for sale. Then mount it with an old automotive fan on it for a cooler. Overall size wouldn't be a problem, they make coolers and radiators thicker so they can shrink the height and width without giving up any capacity.

In regards to helping depressurize the open center system, could the bypass be run to the tractor separate from the return from the pump? Then find a check plug or drain plug to plumb the line into?

Using a PTO fan is also a good idea, if you can find one that will put out enough CFM. Also remember there will be some loss in your tubing if you mount it up near the hitch. But I like it because I can see what is going on when I look at it. It's simpler once you figure out the mounts.