PLEASE HELP 49 8N Ford

[8N jdawg]

(This is about a 1949 Ford 8N thats been upgraded to 12 volt)

So this is a long and painful story
It started with my exhaust/intake manifold it looked ruff so I
thought oh I should paint it so, I removed it. Then since I had
that off I thought well I have this carb rebuild kit so I might as
well take it apart and clean it up. Well then i had the genus idea,
since im this far why dont I just take everything off the engine
so I can repaint the engine? Now mind you I dont believe the
motor had ever been painted. It was like faded to orange and
there was only one layer. The rest of the tractor has many layers
of paint. Anyways this lead to the removal of
-hood (hood wings, gas tank)
-stealing wheel
-complete front end
-battery box
-starter motor (solenoid)
-oil filter canister
-water pump (fan)
-distributor (coil, cap, plug wires)
-alternator (upgraded to 12v)
-spark plugs
-governor
-all oil lines
-all linkages

I removed the coil first, removed the top wire and set it back. I
removed the cap and set it aside leaving the wires connected.
Before I removed the boots from the plugs I put a different color
peice of electrical tape on each then took a picture so that I
could refer back to the order of color (I understand that the
wires are the correct length and that the color coding was
unneeded but I wanted to be sure they went back on correct.
Then I took the distributor off <this is where I think I should
have stopped>. When I took the distributor off I unscrewed the
condenser first, then the three screws on the disc (the two
fasteners and the what I know now to be the gap adjustment for
the points ). Then I screwed it all back in when I realized I could
just take out the big round clip that holds the hole disc in place
(never gaped or payed attention to how the points were sitting).
I also took what I didnt know then but know now to be the
timing adjustment off. Now I was smart enough to take a picture
of what direction the distributor was pointing so I could put it
back in the right direction.

Fast foreword put everything back together and on with new
corresponding gasketsandno spark
This has been over the course of the past three months and now
recently have gotten the motivation to get it cleaned, painted,
and put back together. So I have things that Id like to get done
with it and as a teen I cant wait any longer to get back to
driving my Ole 8N, therefore you can understand the
disappointment when it dont start right up or for that matter
even spark. So in good fashion I hit the internet a runnin trying to
see why this might be. The first thing I came across was see if
youre getting power to your coil. The video said to touch the
coil wire to ground and if it sparks you got power. Well I did in
fact have spark. So then I bring in reinforcements, Dad . He
in all his wisdom says, did ya check the points? Now Id heard
about the points but didnt know the extent of their purpose
they serve to power the beast. So we remove the distributor and
find that the points have been sitting closed <I know now that
thats not something you want>. Anyhow he gaps the to .015
and takes a little bit of 400 grit sandpaper and cleans them up.
Also gapped the spark plugs to .025. IT NOW RUNSwell sorta

Thats enough background. So now it starts and will idle but
when you give it throttle (under no load) it sputters, coughs and
even backfires.

Now in an effort of trouble shooting we have set the carb to the
recommended adjustment and went from there going more in or
resetting and try going out. All this with no luck, we then took it
back apart to check my work. No luck, then ordered a new carb
on Amazonno luck.

At a loss here not really sure where to go from here. I think it
may be something with the distributor or timing.

Hoping someone has experienced this and was able to
persevere and overcome their problem thats willing to share. Or
even any suggestions from someone that may havent
experienced this but has an idea of what it could be. OPEN TO
ANY SUGGESTIONS


from now on I will live by the motto,

it aint broke, DONT FIX IT

Thanks,
-Jason

 

[Bruce(OR)]

Yep. You done good. Runs and spu-utte-rs. cough cough. . .
Some day I will tell you about the idiot who took apart a '94 F350 CC Dually 7.3 idi turbo and replaced the entire drive train, suspension system and swapped it to 4X4 and added an Allison 6 speed trans.
that's a special kind of stupid.

Yours might be a bit less can of worms.

Amazon Cra per-ator. Well, if you can source a used on on flea bay that might be better. I believe I sold all mine. This is also where a can of ether can be your friend. Lets see if we can weed this out in a real quick hurry. I have many things to do today and playing with your toy wasn't on the list.

Fire it up, let it idle until warmed up which takes 21 minutes for an engine to reach normal operating temp and all the metal to expand to proper shape. Yeah, I know. You can't wait that long. So in 5 minutes accelerate as you pull out the choke knob. Still pooping? Excuse me, popping?
If so, you probably have an electric problem. If not, might be that Amazon Cra per-ator.

That took about 6 minutes to diagnose. Your still sitting here?
Now what?
You desire my '94 iDi problems?

Post your response below this. You post above and i will not be notified so we can continue this entertainment. Happy 4Th.

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley RIP]

Don't misunderstand a 12V Conversion to necessarily be an upgrade. 12V has its PROS for sure, helps an old, tired, worn engine start faster for one. There's not a thing wrong with the original 6V/POS GRN system either. Whichever setup you choose, the wiring must be correct for that system. FACT: 99.98% of all non-starting issues are due to mucked-up wiring. Many 12V setups are done incorrectly and often when finished, result is same non-starting issues as when you started. I'd ensure machine is tuned up properly and running at optimum B4 I'd worry about painting anything. Yanking everything off is OK if ya know what your are doing. FIRST, forget year and s/n, they mean nothing really. Do you have a Front Mount Distributor or the later Angle (SIDE) Mount Distributor? It matters, they are not wired the same. > Next, do you have copies of the Essential Manuals? No? Get them, best investment you will make if'N ya wanna be an N Owner. Front Mount is tuned up with unit on your bench. You need the manuals to do the job properly. Points are set at .015 on the front mount, .025 on the side mount. Plugs are .027 on all FORD N's. There are many videos on UTOOB and such and many are incorrect. Know which is right, forget ho-made videos. Ask here. Did you do a Fuel Flow Test? Pass? Leave it alone. Wiring is often incorrectly done. Know which is which and what is what. Get the correct manuals and documents. You need copies of WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR for al the correct wiring diagrams. Take no shortcuts. Side Mount Timing set with timing light via flywheel via hash marks, 4 DEG BTDC, - thru side inspection cover. Do you have a 12V COIL if using 12V?


8N FORD CORRECT 6V/POS GRN WIRING PICTOGRAMS by JMOR:

12V CONVERSIONS:

FORD 8N ANGLE (SIDE) MOUNT DISTRIBUTOR SPECS:
POINTS - STANDARD IGNITION/BLUE STREAK p/n FD-8081X - NAPA should stock them.
BREAKER POINT GAP = .025
SPARK PLUG GAP = .027
SPARK PLUG TYPE = CHAMPION 14mm H12 or AUTO-LITE 437
CONDENSER = p/n FAB-12300-A
COIL = 8BA-12029 (6V)
COIL = B6AZ-12029 (12V)
FIRING ORDER = 1,2,4,3 CCW


FORD OPERATOR'S MANUAL 50-52:

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39-53 MPC:

I&T FO-4 SERVICE MANUAL:

Tim Daley (MI)

 

[Lynn Patrick]

First of all, most of us here have been around for many, many years (I turn 80 next week!), so are thrilled to hear of a teen doing this! Thanks for giving us hope for the future of N appreciation!
You've probably already learned this, but new parts doesn't mean good parts! I would suspect a faulty new ignition part, &amp; would first suspect a faulty spark plug. I only use NGK 3112's anymore as I have less problems w/them than w/any other.
Good luck &amp; keep us informed!

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 15:25:03 07/04/23) (This is about a 1949 Ford 8N thats been upgraded to 12 volt)

So this is a long and painful story
It started with my exhaust/intake manifold it looked ruff so I
thought oh I should paint it so, I removed it. Then since I had
that off I thought well I have this carb rebuild kit so I might as
well take it apart and clean it up. Well then i had the genus idea,
since im this far why dont I just take everything off the engine
so I can repaint the engine? Now mind you I dont believe the
motor had ever been painted. It was like faded to orange and
there was only one layer. The rest of the tractor has many layers
of paint. Anyways this lead to the removal of
-hood (hood wings, gas tank)
-stealing wheel
-complete front end
-battery box
-starter motor (solenoid)
-oil filter canister
-water pump (fan)
-distributor (coil, cap, plug wires)
-alternator (upgraded to 12v)
-spark plugs
-governor
-all oil lines
-all linkages

I removed the coil first, removed the top wire and set it back. I
removed the cap and set it aside leaving the wires connected.
Before I removed the boots from the plugs I put a different color
peice of electrical tape on each then took a picture so that I
could refer back to the order of color (I understand that the
wires are the correct length and that the color coding was
unneeded but I wanted to be sure they went back on correct.
Then I took the distributor off &lt;this is where I think I should
have stopped&gt;. When I took the distributor off I unscrewed the
condenser first, then the three screws on the disc (the two
fasteners and the what I know now to be the gap adjustment for
the points ). Then I screwed it all back in when I realized I could
just take out the big round clip that holds the hole disc in place
(never gaped or payed attention to how the points were sitting).
I also took what I didnt know then but know now to be the
timing adjustment off. Now I was smart enough to take a picture
of what direction the distributor was pointing so I could put it
back in the right direction.

Fast foreword put everything back together and on with new
corresponding gasketsandno spark
This has been over the course of the past three months and now
recently have gotten the motivation to get it cleaned, painted,
and put back together. So I have things that Id like to get done
with it and as a teen I cant wait any longer to get back to
driving my Ole 8N, therefore you can understand the
disappointment when it dont start right up or for that matter
even spark. So in good fashion I hit the internet a runnin trying to
see why this might be. The first thing I came across was see if
youre getting power to your coil. The video said to touch the
coil wire to ground and if it sparks you got power. Well I did in
fact have spark. So then I bring in reinforcements, Dad . He
in all his wisdom says, did ya check the points? Now Id heard
about the points but didnt know the extent of their purpose
they serve to power the beast. So we remove the distributor and
find that the points have been sitting closed &lt;I know now that
thats not something you want&gt;. Anyhow he gaps the to .015
and takes a little bit of 400 grit sandpaper and cleans them up.
Also gapped the spark plugs to .025. IT NOW RUNSwell sorta

Thats enough background. So now it starts and will idle but
when you give it throttle (under no load) it sputters, coughs and
even backfires.

Now in an effort of trouble shooting we have set the carb to the
recommended adjustment and went from there going more in or
resetting and try going out. All this with no luck, we then took it
back apart to check my work. No luck, then ordered a new carb
on Amazonno luck.

At a loss here not really sure where to go from here. I think it
may be something with the distributor or timing.

Hoping someone has experienced this and was able to
persevere and overcome their problem thats willing to share. Or
even any suggestions from someone that may havent
experienced this but has an idea of what it could be. OPEN TO
ANY SUGGESTIONS


from now on I will live by the motto,

it aint broke, DONT FIX IT

Thanks,
-Jason
&lt;img src=https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cvphotos/cvphoto157778.jpg&gt;

Jason,

In all of the above information, I hope that you caught the one piece that I circled in my snip of it below:

You said that your dad gapped the points to 0.015 and the plugs to 0.025.

I circled the specs in my snip. Set your point and plug gaps to that spec, before you get too far off in other directions.

A gap that is too close will result in a weak spark and sputtering issues that you describe.

A spark tester is your friend. There are many ways to test for spark, very few ways to test for a strong spark at the exact level that you need.

Be wary of any new part from any source. People that say they've had good luck with one brand or another (including me) have, at best, a sample of a few for their "data".

But...if you can test and quantify what you're testing... (for instance, if you have a spark tester)... you can verify whether things are working right, regardless of whether you bought new parts or re-installed old parts.

Good luck.

This post was edited by lastcowboy32 on 07/05/2023 at 07:51 am.

 

[lastcowboy32]

In my own experience, and learning from others here, since we plan to keep our old N, we have two pieces of "test equipment" dedicated to it...

A spark tester.

A length of stranded 10AWG wire about 6' long with good gator clips on the end.

If you're a teenager, you are used to modern cars; whose ignition systems often run 200,000 miles without an adjustment. But, you'll need divine help and a programming degree to adjust them if they do.

These old N tractors? They are simple, which is nice. But... they also need to be adjusted, tweaked and measured constantly manual says 1 hour of maint for every 10 hours of use.

If you keep your N for a while, you are most probably going to experience ignition issues that the spark tester will diagnose... and you are most probably going to experience a connection, ignition switch, or something like that failing... which the jumper wire would help you.

A timing light is something that you can rent or borrow. You should only have to mess with that if you remove the whole distributor or loosen it. But, they aren't that expensive... so if you wanted a third piece of test equipment, a timing light would be handy.

Next would be a compression tester. These tractors are 70 to 80 years old, they often skip and sputter because they don't get the suction that they should... due to leaky valves or piston rings.

 

[lastcowboy32]

BUT... to redirect my own comment... if your tractor was running fine before you started these cosmetic fixes... I wouldn't suspect compression... unless you let it sit so long that it got a sticky valve, which can happen...

But... push that possibility down your list of expected issues for now... definitely check your point gap first, since you wrote that it was set too close.

 

[deanostoybox]

On 2N, 9N and 8N tractors prior to serial 263844 Recommended contact gap is .015

After tractor serial 263843, model 8N tractors Recommended contact gap is .025

 

[lastcowboy32]

I have to admit... I saw it was an 8N... and saw all the side mount distributor info in the replies, I assumed it was a side mount distributor, but nothing in the original post says it is.

So...maybe it has a front mount and 0.015 is correct and my assumption was wrong.

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 11:27:09 07/05/23)
I have to admit... I saw it was an 8N... and saw all the side mount distributor info in the replies, I assumed it was a side mount distributor, but nothing in the original post says it is.

So...maybe it has a front mount and 0.015 is correct and my assumption was wrong.

areful reading, I say it is a front mount.

 

[Rich'sToys]

Title of the post says it's a '49, so I would guess front mount.

 

[8N jdawg]

Sorry, It s a front mount distributor. The 12v conversion was done and it ran just as good as before with the sixth volt system and then 6ish months later is when i decided to take it aboard for painting

 

[8N jdawg]

The .025 for the "breaker points" aka points is the rating for a side or "angle" mount distributor, correct?

Very possible that I could be wrong but from what I ve seen all my books say .014 for points

 

[JMOR]

(quoted from post at 15:20:26 07/05/23) The .025 for the "breaker points" aka points is the rating for a side or "angle" mount distributor, correct?

Very possible that I could be wrong but from what I ve seen all my books say .014 for points

his for early 8Ns with front mount distributors:

 

[lastcowboy32]

(quoted from post at 12:16:47 07/05/23) Sorry, It s a front mount distributor. The 12v conversion was done and it ran just as good as before with the sixth volt system and then 6ish months later is when i decided to take it aboard for painting

Front mount distributor means my comment on gap was incorrect go with your documentation and the redirect comments above by a few people.

What I will tell you about front mount, since that's what our 2N is... is that there is a little tab on the front that is supposed to make contact with a flat electrode on top of your distributor cap.

If you removed your coil and distributor, make sure that tab and the electrode it mates with are both free of oil, dust and anything that looks like corrosion. Also, make sure the tab on the coil is properly "sprung" so that it makes good contact with the mating electrode.

Last time I rebuilt our 2N's engine, which is now... I don't know... 6? 7? years ago? I bought a new coil and distributor cap, points and condenser and re-did the wiring harnesses for ignition and such from new. All parts were purchased from this website (Yesterday's Tractor Co.)

Put the engine together, wired the ignition... spark tested... no spark. Turns out that the little tab on the new coil had maybe gotten bent a little during shipping or maybe even my own handling. Don't know. What I do know is that I bent that little tab out from the coil a little more to give it some good spring... reconnected and had spark. Engine ran like a champ.

So... whether you bought a new coil and/or distributor... or are just putting your old ones back on... make sure that tab makes good contact with the electrode on the distributor cap, and that both tab and electrode are clean and free of corrosion.

Among all of the other settings that others have mentioned and given specs for.

While you're at it, if you are re-using your old distributor cap, check for oil, dust and carbon tracks in the cap. This would get worse, if you left it laying around between disassembly and reassembly... any oil in the cap would attract dust, and it would just stick there, bleeding your spark.

Again...among the settings that others have mentioned.

 

[lastcowboy32]

I don't know what stage of re-assembly you are in, but, having messed with my distributor a couple of times previous to the engine rebuild, I remembered how much of a pain it was to do anything with it, once the tractor is assembled.

I could have, and should have, spark tested before I put coolant in the engine and put the radiator, gas tank and all of the shields on.

I didn't. I just assumed that all new parts wired according to the manual would work.

When they didn't, I didn't find out until everything was assembled, and it was a PITA to mess with that front mount distributor and coil.

About a year later, I was watching an episode of Orange County Choppers, and watched how they tested rebuilt motorcycle engines with IV bags full of gasoline...because motorcycle engines are also a PITA to get at, once their gas tanks are mounted and they are mounted in the chassis.

Also... kudos to you for being a teenager and having the patience to deal with this and all of the specs.

 

[boler76]

Motto if it aint broke fix it until it is

 

[8N jdawg]

(quoted from post at 13:52:36 07/05/23)
I don't know what stage of re-assembly you are in, but, having messed with my distributor a couple of times previous to the engine rebuild, I remembered how much of a pain it was to do anything with it, once the tractor is assembled.

I could have, and should have, spark tested before I put coolant in the engine and put the radiator, gas tank and all of the shields on.

I didn't. I just assumed that all new parts wired according to the manual would work.

When they didn't, I didn't find out until everything was assembled, and it was a PITA to mess with that front mount distributor and coil.

About a year later, I was watching an episode of Orange County Choppers, and watched how they tested rebuilt motorcycle engines with IV bags full of gasoline...because motorcycle engines are also a PITA to get at, once their gas tanks are mounted and they are mounted in the chassis.

Also... kudos to you for being a teenager and having the patience to deal with this and all of the specs.

YES ITS SUCH A PITA TOO GET IN THERE, but I would absolutely love to get it going so I m putting up with it

 

[Jerry9N]

From Jasons description of his symptoms I am wondering if this could be as simple as number three and four plug wires swapped? Easy enough to do, dont ask how I know.


Jerry