Pole barn opinions

waugh621

Member
I am toying with the idea of putting up a building this winter and want some opinions. I am looking at a 30× 32 building and am thinking about pouring a footer and keeping all the wood above grade. I know this will add a fair bit of cost and work but i figure would be better in the long run. Am i correct on thinking that and what would be the best way of fixing the posts to the footer. I would like to have bracets poured in to the concrete but that requires some presicion.
Thanks for the input, Nate
 
My grandpa who put in pole barns in the early 80s said they were designed to last 40 years and some of the ones he put up are still standing but you could make it last longer if you replace the posts as they break
 
Keep in mind the soil weight bearing ability, the weight on each post and it's surface area against/in the soil. I have yet to have one not sink over the years. Other thing, if post rotting is a problem, they make plastic sleeves that go over the end of the post prior to placing in the soil. I had 5x5 square posts for my shop that was a pole barn with a floating floor and used them. Don't know if they make them for round posts....would think so if you are in that business and lots of barns go up with round posts.
 
Keep in mind the soil weight bearing ability, the weight on each post and it's surface area against/in the soil. I have yet to have one not sink over the years. Other thing, if post rotting is a problem, they make plastic sleeves that go over the end of the post prior to placing in the soil. I had 5x5 square posts for my shop that was a pole barn with a floating floor and used them. Don't know if they make them for round posts....would think so if you are in that business and lots of barns go up with round posts.
Thats kind of what i was worried about was rot and sinking. I know it takes time for that to happen but i'm pretty young and will use this building for my life. Just trying think ahead
 
If you are going to insulate, a conventional stud building on a stem wall can cut costs in the long run. Everything is already there to insulate. I built buildings cheaper than pole barns putting "tin" on horizontal, right over the studs and sheathing the inside for grass seed storage that became bag storage as the bays were emptied. Engineered trusses on 4' centers allow smaller dimension lumber to be used, cheaper materials. We used 3/4" plywood 4' high, 1/2" above that to 12'. Much easier to rodent proof than a pole barn. We put a band of clear siding at the top to let light in since we needed the walls strong, so no lower windows. Pretty easy to self build, no heavy pieces to install. Got a materials list and plan provided by local lumber yard. My shop was an old pole hay shed, added a lean-to on one side, 3 sides were studs on stem wall. Pole shed was headers and trusses on 2' centers. poles on 12' centers but easy to make a 16' and a 24' stalls by strengthening headers....James
 
I've repeated this here several times and I agree with jwal. If I ever did it over I'd build a stick built stud wall building for all the reasons he listed. My pole barn is 40 x 64 and I didn't put a shop in it for 25 years until my dad passed and I lost my workshop. Reverse building by adding dummy studs for insulation and wall panels was way more work than it should have been. And size isn't an issue. My neighbor runs a large excavating business and has three beautiful buildings that gotta be at least 100ft long each and all were stick built.
 
Thats kind of what i was worried about was rot and sinking. I know it takes time for that to happen but i'm pretty young and will use this building for my life. Just trying think ahead
I'm not sure I understand the problem. My pressure treated 6x6 posts are poured into a cylinder of concrete approximately 3 foot diameter, and 4 feet deep. Why on earth (no pun intended) would those posts sink, or rot off, even in 80 years, unless the soil won't support those concrete piers, or frost below 4' could heave them. I've seen posts laminated with PT'd in the concrete and plain laminated above, to save money on pressure treating the whole post and keep the twist factor minimized.

You'd have to do the math to see if your stem walls will consume a similar amount of concrete that poured piers would. Commercial gurts can get you the 24" on center insulation space, and sheathing the walls and roof would be the same in both systems. I have vertical tin on my walls, and a vapor barrier between the gerts and the tin. Half of the 36 x 40 shop is insulated with 6" fiberglass and heated with in-floor PEX and a homemade outside wood boiler. If you want to rodent proof it, either sheath the walls with panels (plywood or osb) or put the prescribed filler material between the bottom edge of the tin sheats at the bottom PT'd gurt. The only savings I can see is the pt'd slab edge boards, and the blocking between commercial gurts that would not be present in stick built. Keep in mind that some of your lumber, no matter what, is going to be in contact with the concrete. Sill seal on stick built helps interrupt that contact. But you should be using pressure treated sill plates in either case.

You might want to talk to a structural engineer to assure yourself of the life expectancy of either system. Or at least look at the longevity specs for PT'd lumber available in your area. steve

Another thing came to mind. Pour you piers so they are higher than the ground level, and slope the top of the concrete away from the post, at the top of the pier. Caulk the perimeter of the post so there's no water seeping down into the post in the concrete. Good roof overhang will keep the water away too.
 
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Some thoughts use pressure treated for ground or near ground contact. You probably will never beat a concrete slab. I assume you do not want to go that route. Dig out the topsoil and put in good gravel and drainage. Some people use coated phone/light poles or other creosote material and put them in the ground much like a fence pole. Look around your area and see what others have done.
 
On my last few pole-barn projects, I've welded four drops-pegs to a piece of 10" x 10" or so plate and set it in the concrete for each post. Then I get some tall L-brackets made by my local fab shop and weld them to the embeded plates one the concrete's set. Your brackets need some height and heft to resist moment on a pole-style building and need to be of sufficiently thick steel. The little saddle-style brackets you get at building supply stores don't cut it. A local fab shop can make the brackets pretty cheaply - last ones I did for a 24' X 70' pole barn ended up being $18 each.

The handy thing about doing it this way is you have some flexibility to shift the brackets around a little bit to get them all in-line before you weld them down. Much easier than having to line up all the posts perfectly when setting them in the ground. If you're using 6X6 posts and the 10" x 10" plates mentioned above, that means you have up to 2" in every direction to move them around and get them perfectly in-line. I usually use footing-tubes or sono-tubes, then pour a pad around them later (if at all). But you can do it on a pad as well, as long as your pad has a deep enough grade-beam beneath the posts.

I don't have a flat surface to write on right now so this is a pretty crude sketch, but something like this is what I do (click on link below). Brackets are usually turned 90 degrees to what I have shown. I show on a concrete grade beam, but the same idea applies to using footing tubes.

View attachment Post_Concept.jpg
 
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if post rotting is a problem, they make plastic sleeves that go over the end of the post prior to placing in the soil.

So there is a thick slick plastic sleeve on the bottom of the post that is in the ground?

Does that make it easier for a hurricane or tornado to lift the structure out in one assembly?

The above is not meant to be snarky but I am curious to know if there is some sort of anchoring that goes with.
 
I am toying with the idea of putting up a building this winter and want some opinions. I am looking at a 30× 32 building and am thinking about pouring a footer and keeping all the wood above grade. I know this will add a fair bit of cost and work but i figure would be better in the long run. Am i correct on thinking that and what would be the best way of fixing the posts to the footer. I would like to have bracets poured in to the concrete but that requires some presicion.
Thanks for the input, Nate
I used Perma columns when I had my 36' x 48' built about 18 years ago. I like the concept and haven't had any issues since it was built. The company also makes brackets to hold the posts which can (depending on type) be set into wet concrete or be bolted into holes which are drilled in existing concrete.

My building is not finished inside. I can imagine some (probably minor) issues that would be encountered if you finished the inside (because the concrete post base extends well above the slab level and the metal "attachment bracket" extends even higher.

 
how many years will you get from the wood? I have no termite experience, but I would think that getting 10 years out of the roof would be good to go. if termites are fast eaters I wonder, could you make your posts out of concrete and rebar?
 
All of our buildings except 2 are of the pole style and the last one was built in the 80's. All still standing fine. the earliest built was in the late 60's . On clay type soil with no pads under any of them with no known sinking I can see. The clearance is the same as it was when built of 12 fewet under the plates. We do havr a couple poles that have rotted off so we just cut them off squeezed pole over enough to pull the old pole butt out and filled the hole with cement till it was up to the pole bottom drilled a hole in the bottom of the pole put a 5/8 rod in the hole to extend down into thew cement to hold sideways movement and good to go. NO tornado issues here from the last 100 years of experience yes they have been around just never seem to come here. with all the other stuff on the building I'm not going to worry about 1 pole just setting on a bolt/rod in cement stuck in the poles bottom drilled hole.
 
Thats kind of what i was worried about was rot and sinking. I know it takes time for that to happen but i'm pretty young and will use this building for my life. Just trying think ahead
Well, my shop was built in 2005. About 4 years ago I had settling had accumulated to the degree that I attached a suitable support to the posts, jacked them back up to where they were originally and put supports under them sitting on the concrete slab to hold them up. So that's looking at 15 years in hard clay, on well drained soil. The buiding is 30x50 and the perimeter posts were every 10' for a couple of numbers.
 
So there is a thick slick plastic sleeve on the bottom of the post that is in the ground?

Does that make it easier for a hurricane or tornado to lift the structure out in one assembly?

The above is not meant to be snarky but I am curious to know if there is some sort of anchoring that goes with.
Well guessing, yes and no. The initial answer would be possibly/probably. The after thought is that the shells are 3-4' deep....forget which. Ground pressure is obviously forcing the shells against the posts. The building is engineer rated at 90 mile winds and I put X straps on all 4 sides after construction to help to brace the walls and keep them plumb.
 
Pouring a footer and a foundation wall a foot or so above grade would be the most structurally sound method, but if you're going to do that I would put a stick built structure on it rather than a pole type
Yeah and where you were going to mount a vertical post, install a steel adapter plate/device in the perimeter footer when you pour it...don't forget your rebar. in the footer. The adapters would have a lip to keep them in the concrete, a flat plate sitting on the top of the footer, and a U shaped upper part with a bolt hole in it to through bolt your post......I would think. Then you could forget about settling problems and leave the floor sand/soil, or go and pour a "floating slab" if you want the convenience of a concrete floor.

On the concrete floor, I felt that 5" with 18" centers on #3 rebar would work for me. It did for about 5 years and now 20 years down the road, the slab is cracked and tilted somewhat on the down hill side from my clay expansion/contractions over the years. But homes have a problem with cracked slabs here too.....foundation folks make a good living making the necessary repairs....lots of folks in the business. The rebar is keeping it all tied together. In retrospect, I probably should have poured a slab like one does for a home with reinforcing beams around the perimeter and crossed at some interval......then go with the anchors mentioned above or just make it out of steel and weld the verticals to the embedded anchor points.
 
Well, my shop was built in 2005. About 4 years ago I had settling had accumulated to the degree that I attached a suitable support to the posts, jacked them back up to where they were originally and put supports under them sitting on the concrete slab to hold them up. So that's looking at 15 years in hard clay, on well drained soil. The buiding is 30x50 and the perimeter posts were every 10' for a couple of numbers.
I'm reading into this, but are your posts just backfilled and not set in concrete? Or on bigger footings? You have to just about be on bedrock to expect the bottom of even an 8x8 post to support the walls and roof, and maybe snow load of a building that size. Just doing some quick math, with 20 posts, assuming 6x6 posts: 36 sq inches x20 posts is only 720 square inches (5 sq ft) of support for the entire building load.

My builder built my covered attached deck that way and it sank 1.5 inches in 2 years. I dug up the posts and poured a 24" diameter footing under the posts. It is no longer sinking, nor is it trying to pull apart from the house. steve
 

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