I'm wondering if anyone has used washout in fresh concrete mix and how it turned out. Used for driveways, parking surfaces and utility building floor. I figure used aggregate and sand is coated with Portland so 2 additional 95 pound bags of Portland per yard should make usable material. If this mix is poured at 5slump how do you think it would compare to 3,500 psi mix delivered from the plant then watered down into soup by onsite crew?
- Thread starter da.bees
- Start date
caterpillar guy
Well-known Member
It willbe fine if just poured in the bottom without adding to it. We used to have then start to wash out so the bulk of it was in the bottom then let them washout ad drain the rest in the driveway so it could set up and don't drive on it if you don't want the splash to stick to all the vehicles driven through there.
caterpillar guy
Well-known Member
It will be fine if just poured in the bottom without adding to it. We used to have then start to wash out so the bulk of it was in the bottom then let them washout ad drain the rest in the driveway so it could set up and don't drive on it if you don't want the splash to stick to all the vehicles driven through there. IF it is washout it will not be a 5 slump. more like a dishwater.
watered down into soup means you ought to get a different concrete crew. Them boys are doing it on the cheap and easy. The weakest concrete is the wettest, the strongest is the most difficult to work, the most difficult to pour, sad to say. That's why the strength test is a SLUMP test, testing the resistance to slumping is an indication of strength.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
What is " Washout" ?
When the mixer driver finishes delivery he adds water to drum so that mud is
washed off inside as he drives back to plant. Soon as truck pulls into plant yard
he gos to a desinated area and dumps the mixture (aka washout) on the ground and
finishes cleaning up to prevent concrete drying in,on and around drum. A pile of
sand and gravel soon accumulates so plant sells it cheaper than material costs
them initially. Instead of buying sand and rock to make concrete I'm thinking of
buying washout which is much cheaper.
washed off inside as he drives back to plant. Soon as truck pulls into plant yard
he gos to a desinated area and dumps the mixture (aka washout) on the ground and
finishes cleaning up to prevent concrete drying in,on and around drum. A pile of
sand and gravel soon accumulates so plant sells it cheaper than material costs
them initially. Instead of buying sand and rock to make concrete I'm thinking of
buying washout which is much cheaper.
Thank you for your thoughts but I'm not looking for explanation of slump,strenth testing nor advise on lazy crews,I'm looking into ways of cutting cost of aggerate and subsequent effect. When job requires certification of strength I have crew fill tubes from batches and send tubes to a lab.
Geo-TH,In
Well-known Member
I haven't poured concrete on the cheap,
In 2004 I had a 6 inch driveway with wire put down. ZERO cracks.
In 2010 I had a 6 inch slab in a pole barn, continuous pour 30x40, ZERO cracks. Wire
In 2020 I had a 6 inch slab in a pole barn, continuous pour 30x40, ZERO cracks. Wire
Each time I hired the same concrete finisher.
The price for concrete was about the same, $100 a cubic yard, tax included.
I would advise do it right the first time.
I had to remove a slab of concrete that someone had poured a 2 inch slab over the old slab. It didn't work, It cracked up.
When it comes to concrete I refuse to go cheap. 6 inch minimum and wire installed by a professional concrete finisher.
One time when I was young and foolish I had a 3.5 inch 10x14 ft patio, no wire, installed at the back door of a rental. It was a disaster, cracked into 4 pieces.
In 2004 I had a 6 inch driveway with wire put down. ZERO cracks.
In 2010 I had a 6 inch slab in a pole barn, continuous pour 30x40, ZERO cracks. Wire
In 2020 I had a 6 inch slab in a pole barn, continuous pour 30x40, ZERO cracks. Wire
Each time I hired the same concrete finisher.
The price for concrete was about the same, $100 a cubic yard, tax included.
I would advise do it right the first time.
I had to remove a slab of concrete that someone had poured a 2 inch slab over the old slab. It didn't work, It cracked up.
When it comes to concrete I refuse to go cheap. 6 inch minimum and wire installed by a professional concrete finisher.
One time when I was young and foolish I had a 3.5 inch 10x14 ft patio, no wire, installed at the back door of a rental. It was a disaster, cracked into 4 pieces.
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
I ordered some 'crushed concrete' from a local redi-mix plant. What they delivered was not recycled concrete but, I think, washout. It was mostly sand and turned out to be useless as driveway material. I can't imagine concrete using washout instead of aggregate would be very good. There's a reason they'll sell it to you cheap: Nobody else wants it.
db4600
Well-known Member
Once the cement and lime is activated there is no value other then aggregate once it is crushed. You still need the correct recipe of aggregate, water, and cement. If you can get crushed concrete at a reasonable price it might make sense, but it is likely that rock and sand might be attained cheaper then crushed concrete to mix. Keep in mind that slabs generally have a 3/8 minus aggregate so the crushed aggregate would need to go through a small screen.
blueridge
Member
- Location
- Crawfordsville In
Where I live I can see the Ready-mix plant down the road, I hauled a lot of Wash-out with my old dump
truck, we extended parking area. they won't sell it anymore. some of it was pretty wet, local trucker
got a ticket for a leaky load, he hauled my son several loads we put it down and put down #8's on top
on a new drive, has worked out pretty good. I don't know what they do when they wash out trucks now, l
guess I need to ask a Driver
truck, we extended parking area. they won't sell it anymore. some of it was pretty wet, local trucker
got a ticket for a leaky load, he hauled my son several loads we put it down and put down #8's on top
on a new drive, has worked out pretty good. I don't know what they do when they wash out trucks now, l
guess I need to ask a Driver
Fritz Maurer
Well-known Member
Why dont you fill a tube with your washout mix and send THAT to the lab, then you will see precisely how it compares.
RBnSC
Well-known Member
I know what you are asking and I don't have an answer but I have been around it a great deal. At one time all of the large concrete companies here had machines that washed out the portland from the left over concrete. The product (rock and sand) they called jade aire. I was nice looking product. We had a customer that had us haul it in and grade it for his driveway. He intern went and got a bunch of portland and spread it out and then proceeded to take tillers and mix it in. I did not see the finished product. I doubt it turned out very well but we never got a call to come back and take it back up. I wouldn't say its impossible but it would not be easy.
Ron
Ron
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Because it'll ruin their mixes and any inspected concrete with that junk in it would be rejected.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
And here is the problem . Some people believe the lowest price will cost the least AND perform the task as required .
If cheapest is your only qualification , the task is doomed . You also probably use the cheapest oil and filter in vehicles if you change the oil .
Im not disagreeing. Just trying to learn.
Since it is cement mix with extra water, what makes it junk actually? One could compensate for the extra water by using less in new mixes....
In plastics and wood and glass and steel, often the extra scraps are recycled back into more product.
Im just looking for why.
Since it is cement mix with extra water, what makes it junk actually? One could compensate for the extra water by using less in new mixes....
In plastics and wood and glass and steel, often the extra scraps are recycled back into more product.
Im just looking for why.
john in la
Well-known Member
Every construction job I have ever been on has had a wash out area. Mostly sand and Portland cement. If you let the pit get filled to deep a 20 ton escalator will not break it up. But if you crush it into small chunks and put it into a driveway it becomes dust. Pure trash that becomes land fill.
Any concrete left in the last truck has some rocks in it but it becomes trash because they mix so much water in it. If crushed and used in a driveway it becomes dust with a few rocks.
A old slab that has been taken up might work as the rock in a new mix but they usually dont crush it small enough to be used for that purpose.
Any concrete left in the last truck has some rocks in it but it becomes trash because they mix so much water in it. If crushed and used in a driveway it becomes dust with a few rocks.
A old slab that has been taken up might work as the rock in a new mix but they usually dont crush it small enough to be used for that purpose.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
The only issue I can see with washout is you would never know what the ratio of sand and aggregate is. The sand would settle to the bottom and you would have aggregate on top. Very likely you would be mixing portland and aggregate without the sand. Then if someone has gotten some aggregate off the top and you get what is on the bottom you would have too much sand and not enough aggregate. To get it right you would have to sift the washout to separate the sand and then mix the concrete mix.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
Hydrated cement is not new cement, it becomes more like aggrigate with less strength, and is over hydrated. The reason concrete is poured at the correct slump is to assure the hydration rate is optimal for complete cure, but no more. Over hydrated sloppy concrete is weak, and must be torn out. Ask the people that are forced out of their buildings in Florida, or many projects in developing nations that fall down during, or years after construction. it is lso porous to water beyond correct slump concrete and will freeze into dust in freeze thaw cycles. Jim
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Contrary to popular belief concrete mixes have very precise formulas for a multitude of purposes not just a bunch of stuff haphazadly thrown together.When I left the concrete plant we had over 150 mix designs and about 20 different tanks with diffeent admixes. We got a computer print out on each load,any variation and all bets are off as far as strength. I'm state certified to dispatch,batch,inspect and design concrete mixes BTW.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
So what plant would contaminate their aggregate bins with unkno0wn or wrong size or type aggregate? None if they wanted to stay in business very long.
I hauled ready-mix concrete for two years. Lot's of Federal DOT pours too. Overpasses & bridges, every load gets materials tested for moisture, weights via certified scales confirmed, and the materials dumped in the mixers, driver has to reset his drum turn counter in front of the inspector, the inspector at the pour logs the turns, can't be too few or too many, most of our pours were close to 20 miles away, the drums barely turned, think the range was 60 to 90 turns. You tested slump, fill a traffic cone, invert and remove cone, measure height of concrete, had to be something like 75% original height. Then pour test bar, 4x4 or 6x6 by 24 to 30 inch long, smooth all 4 sides, ID numbers scratched in bar. And then you unloaded. One yard bucket hanging on a 50 ft crane boom, crane operator dropped the bucket within less than an inch all 7 buckets., next truck was ready to unload by the time I was empty. We had a wet batch of sand one day, SEVEN loads, 49 total yards dumped off the back edge of the parking lot at the truckstop, All 7 loads in transit to the pour before the first load failed slump. Would have made a great driveway or livestock feed floor. Our new REX batch plant was computer controlled, all materials weighed into hoppers then fed into a really big mixing drum, very little chance of a mistake, only rain water-logged material could cause it.
Now, the jobs pouring basement walls, driveways, sidewalks, floors for buildings, feed floors, etc, you pulled away from where you unloaded, somebody on the contracting company told you where you could wash out, you cleaned your chutes, back of the truck, any tools the contractor wanted cleaned, and I always left a couple gallons of water in the drum, and hurried back for another load. If you got more than a handful of Sand & gravel out of an empty drum you really weren't empty. Lot of contractors that poured walls, they would have you back up to the wall, tell you to Add 50 gallon! and they haven't even seen the mix yet. The last load they poured probably took 50 gal. Our trucks only had 100 gallon water tanks.
The little bit of sand and gravel that comes out of an empty ready-mix truck is worthless, If I washed out on a crushed rock driveway in a week it would be impossible to see any sign I had been there.
Back when I hauled summer of '75 & '76, and a week in July '77, concrete was $50-$55/yard. There were discounts for some contractors, they emptied trucks faster, poured more big jobs. For instance, me and another driver hauled over 120 yards combined in one morning, only a mile from our one small batch plant, we left our chutes at the job site. We dry batched from that plant, had to really spin the drum on that short drive to the job! Was a fun job! I referred to the truck as a Mobile MUDHOLE I wore rubber boots every day.
Now, the jobs pouring basement walls, driveways, sidewalks, floors for buildings, feed floors, etc, you pulled away from where you unloaded, somebody on the contracting company told you where you could wash out, you cleaned your chutes, back of the truck, any tools the contractor wanted cleaned, and I always left a couple gallons of water in the drum, and hurried back for another load. If you got more than a handful of Sand & gravel out of an empty drum you really weren't empty. Lot of contractors that poured walls, they would have you back up to the wall, tell you to Add 50 gallon! and they haven't even seen the mix yet. The last load they poured probably took 50 gal. Our trucks only had 100 gallon water tanks.
The little bit of sand and gravel that comes out of an empty ready-mix truck is worthless, If I washed out on a crushed rock driveway in a week it would be impossible to see any sign I had been there.
Back when I hauled summer of '75 & '76, and a week in July '77, concrete was $50-$55/yard. There were discounts for some contractors, they emptied trucks faster, poured more big jobs. For instance, me and another driver hauled over 120 yards combined in one morning, only a mile from our one small batch plant, we left our chutes at the job site. We dry batched from that plant, had to really spin the drum on that short drive to the job! Was a fun job! I referred to the truck as a Mobile MUDHOLE I wore rubber boots every day.
I suppose you could consider wash out as sand and aggregate, spread it on the drive and use a tiler of some kind to incorporate lime or Portland in the spread to make a low strength drive. Wet it and roll it good you would have a kind of water bound macdam. That would work very well if your local aggregate is limestone. I had a project where we were mining a storage cavern in high quality limestone. The excavated limestone was in such demand we set up a portable rock crusher. I had the rejected fines spread watered and rolled to make a heavy haul road.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
He's talking about using the material which is washed out of the cement trucks when they are done with a load. The portland would wash away first so it would be an unknown mixture of sand and gravel. Concrete is generally 1 part portland with 2 parts sand and 3 or 4 parts aggregate. If it has too much sand or too much aggregate it would weaken the concrete.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Thee are numerous types of sand and gravel and they are not interchangeable in a concrete mix.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Most of the time on commercial jobs they will have their own designs for a job and the state always did their own designs.When we did it most times was with a change of aggregate or sand.
Stephen Newell
Well-known Member
Yes, but the discussion is on re-using sand and gravel which was already in a concrete mix.
Traditional Farmer
Well-known Member
- Location
- Virginia
Maybe but may not be the same as what the next mix calls for,different aggregates have different values.Not going to make good concrete out of junk ingredients.
I'm glad I asked if anyone has tried this before. I didn't learn much about concrete but learned the majority here YT always go without until they have access to optimum material and expert labor. It's refreshing to be reminded how resourceful people around me have always been. There's millions of acres in Texas that wouldn't be inhabited and utilized simple because it isn't feasible to build miles of road just to alow a mixer truck to deliver concrete for a windmill water tank. Without aid of computer program or advanced education on concrete design ,ranch hands have used whatever sand and rock they find to hand mixed concrete that has held up for decades. Ever day fences,gates,water gates,corrals and dozens of other things are built from used oilfield pipe by welders who's work isn't inspected and certified. Concrete isn't my field so what I know was picked up watching over the years. Based on the fact naysayers swear concrete can't be capped but I've done it with success I'll try a batch as proposed and report the results. I was hoping some had done it previously and could offer tips such as having sand available to replace what was lost in process. Thanks again ,as always I really injoyed hearing views.
Around here, material that is rejected is made into bunker blocks, who knows what else.
Clean outs, really hard to see a use for it, with all the excess water, aggregate settled out etc. You already got a bunch of good information below. Honestly, as far as compressive strength, what one thinks and what is proven out with what you are contemplating is never going to match. You would need to design a 3500 PSI mix intentionally and prove it through cylinder breaks. You might get lucky, never know, but then again with all the variables, not worth fooling for the most part.
So, one time, many years ago, I used a specified mix design for a lightweight concrete fill, in an elevator machine room roof deck. It was 1000 PSI, most worthless concrete I ever worked with, and did not hold up at all when used in other places. Why this design mix ever came to be is beyond me. Who knows, might also have been defective. It was a total waste of labor.
Clean outs, really hard to see a use for it, with all the excess water, aggregate settled out etc. You already got a bunch of good information below. Honestly, as far as compressive strength, what one thinks and what is proven out with what you are contemplating is never going to match. You would need to design a 3500 PSI mix intentionally and prove it through cylinder breaks. You might get lucky, never know, but then again with all the variables, not worth fooling for the most part.
So, one time, many years ago, I used a specified mix design for a lightweight concrete fill, in an elevator machine room roof deck. It was 1000 PSI, most worthless concrete I ever worked with, and did not hold up at all when used in other places. Why this design mix ever came to be is beyond me. Who knows, might also have been defective. It was a total waste of labor.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
It s ok when your pilot , surgeon , dentist , pharmacist , boat captain , railroad engineer , bridge engineer , aviation engineer , marine engineer , civil engineer , nuclear operator etc all say . " close enough ."
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
The aggregate is the least expensive part of the concrete. How much are you going to save by taking this risk? It's obvious nobody here knows the answer, and you don't either.
To me it seems that if the "washout" were any good as aggregate, the plant would be using it.
BarnyardEngineering
Well-known Member
- Location
- Rochester, NY
You were the one that originally dragged "engineering" into this conversation. If it's not critical, then go for it!
Those folks you talk about didn't know or care about the strength of the concrete, and even weak concrete was more than adequate for their needs. You implied that you needed 3500PSI strength concrete. If it's not critical, then any old aggregate will do, as you've clearly stated.
There's a name for people that better understand what someone writes than the writer understood when he wrote it. If you saw engineering being dragged through here it wasn't me doing the dragging. I never stated what strength I need and the ONLY time I mentioned 3500 psi was when adulterated with additional water by lazy crews. Try not letting my experiment bother you, I assure it will not cost you a penny nor a drop of blood.
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy