power question

[larry@stinescorner]

This is the breaker box in the shed

,,Ithink the outlet below it is 220

Is this box good enough to get some newer ,,and more regular outlets in the shed?,,the well pump is in the shed,,that is wired with fairly new cable'
There is only one regular outlet in the shed,,and some light bulbs
They are wired with the metal type cable

I know very little about electrical

 

[chuckinnc]

If you only need a few more outlets, then do like any new house wiring add some every 6 foot then hook the end wire into the outlet box in your photo, Houses usuall have 8 - 10 outlets on one wire, Or else spend a ton on money for a complete rewire job

 

[Mule Meat]

Kind of hard to tell just what type of box you have.

First I do not see an earth ground. A ground wire from the box to a ground rod.

Cant tell what amp service the box supplies. 125 or 200 amp.

That being said. If you have an open space to fit a 120 breaker in the box. Then yes you can install new outlets and lights. When it comes to outdoor sheds and such. I like to put the outlets and lights on seperate breakers. For then if you trip the breaker on the outlets. You are not left in the dark.

Personally. I would upgrade the box to something like a Square D HomeLine 125 amps main breaker box. You should not need a 200 amp box unless you plan to use a lot of power tools in the shop.

The Square D HomeLine offers 120/240 volts, 12 space 24 circuits. If you shop around. You can find a "value pack" for aound $80. They come with the box, main, two 240 breakers and 3 or 4 120 volt breakers. Plenty of power to do what you want safely.

 

[guido]

Hello larry@stinescorner,

Take a picture with the cover open. The outlet below the breaker box is not real clear. The top seems 120 volt receptacle, is the bottom the same? Each breaker can support 10 lighting outlets,

Doubt you have 220 volts service , more likely 240 though,Guido.

 

[Russ from MN]

The outlet in the picture definitely should not be 220!

 

[kcm.MN]

Can't see the brand of box you have. One that old, they may or may not still make breakers for. Do you have any open slots in it?

How much power do you need out there? I'm assuming this box branches off of the main house breaker box? What capacity is the main in this box? And what is the capacity of your overall service, in the house? If 100A, that's a bit small for modern homes. Might want to consider having power company upgrade if you want to add more of anything -- but this also depends on how much you use. If gas stove, water heater and furnace, then your electric load might be fairly small at any given time compared to someone who is all electric.

Also being an old box, would be wise to replace with newer. Breakers lose a little something with age; blackouts, brownouts, surges...they all take their toll, as do rodents and many bugs.

If you have adequate incoming service, then I would replace that box with new and add whatever outlets you feel is needed. Only you can know how much capacity you need, but make sure you don't over-tax your main service panel in the process.

 

[dr sportster]

For some reason you have all tandem breakers [ two spare spaces]. Outlet appears 120 volt.

 

[Stephen Newell]

It would be helpful if you would post a picture of the inside of the breaker box. Since you think there is a 110v outlet wired to 220v no telling what else might be there.

The breaker box would be a sub-panel. They are wired a little different than the box in your house. All the bare copper wires go to one bar which is tied to a copper rod driven into the ground on the outside. Then all the white wires are connected to a separate bar which is feed from the house.

Just a few plugs and outlets there isn't very much of a demand for power but if you ever wanted to run a larger air compressor or do any welding you might have to upgrade the wire feeding the box. You would need to determine the size of the wire coming into the box.

 

[dr sportster]

A grounding conductor should go back to the main panel . This bar should be isolated from the back box. Ground rod is just supplemental grounding.

 

[JDEM]

Looks like that remote-panel is fed from the house with 10 gauge wire? Look inside your house where the main entrance panel is and see what sort of breaker or fuse controls that panel in the shed. If 10 gauge wire likely a 30 amp breaker. Hopefully a double 30 amp with 220 volts available. I see no ground wire on that remote-panel so I suppose it gets its earth-ground from your main entrance panel in the house. If so, all grounds in that remote-panel are isolated from the the white neutrals.

In the answer to your main question, assuming that 15 amp /120 volt duplex you show in the photo is protected by a 15 amp or 20 amp breaker or fuse - there is no reason why you cannot just add more of the same to that line. All I see is NM cable in the photo (Non-Metallic) cable. If you also have some metal-clad cable in there - it does not matter. Just make sure the gauge of the wire matches the fuse/breaker protection. Only downside to some of the older metal-clad is it is not moisture resistant and some does not provide a ground conductor unless is has a bare bonding wire or a ground conductor wire. The old metal clad MC used to be called "BX" when I worked in NJ fifty years ago, and the non-metallic was often called "Romex" because it was invented in Rome, New York.

 

[504]

With all of the breakers pointing the same way I would say it is 115V not 220V. And the plug is just 115V.

 

[dr sportster]

The breakers look like Bryant but are actually a brand called Zinsco. 3 tandem breakers .

 

[Stephen Newell]

I was afraid I was throwing too much at him at once so I didn't include that.

 

[kencombs]

Any answer is a guess since we can't see the wiring inside. Pull the cover and take a good pic. If those are Zinsco breakers I'd recommend a new panel and breakers as they have a history of failing to open when they are supposed to. That can cause a fire quickly. I had one weld shut, overheat and burn a huge hole in the breaker. Luckily the contacts burned away before the wiring caught fire

The panel capacity you need will be determined by the incoming wire size and intended load.

I'd guess a 60a panel would work.

 

[John T]

Hey Larry, sorry I cant tell from the picture exactly what you have so will have to take a few pure "guesses" and describe how it should be done in my rusty retired engineers opinion in the event you wish to comply with the National Electrical Code. NOTE HOWEVER the NEC may or may not even apply,,,,,,, nor may it have even been adopted where you live,,,,,,,,,, nor may you even care lol HOWEVER I will still provide what I consider to be safe and good engineering or at least how it was in the jurisdictions when and where I used to practice. In those the NEC applied and had been adopted and approved. Other places it may not matter or a different code applied or none applied ANYOME CAN WIRE HOW THEY PLEASE AS FAR AS IM CONCERNED LOL its your life at risk not mine


1) My best "guess" it looks like there may be 10/2 with Ground feeding the box on the top ????????????

If so you likely have 120 Volt Single Phase 30 amp service (Hot, Neutral, Ground) to that what I consider to be a "sub panel" If the incoming feed wire is 12 gauge then you only have 20 amp service ALL STILL SUBJECT TO THE RATING OF THE BREAKER IN THE MAIN THAT FEEDS THAT SUB PANEL and wire size...?? Maybe you have 10/2 maybe 10/3 maybe 12/2 maybe 12/3 I cant tell

2) Under older codes you could feed that panel with Hot(s) and a Neutral and the panels Neutral and Ground Busses could be bonded or configured as one single Buss similar to how the main service entrance panel is configured.

3) Under later codes you had to feed the Hot(s) and the Neutral and the Equipment GrouindING Conductor and inside that sub panel the Neutral Buss and Equipment Ground Buss were electrically isolated and insulated from each other IE two separate buss bars NOT one single common Neutral/Ground or TWO bonded Neutral and Ground Busses. Two separate insulated and isolated ground and Neutral Busses are now required if and where the NEC applies or has been adopted or matters or you or anyone cares.

4) Regardless if old or later codes or no codes at all when and where I practiced each buildings electrical service (that includes say an outbuilding or barn or garage etc main panel or sub panel) required bonding to all readily available "Grounding Electrodes" of which a "Made Electrode" such as a rod or rods driven into mother earth sufficed.

If you like you can feed more then that one 120 volt duplex outlet (guess what it is??) from that branch circuit. I used to design for six or eight outlets on a typical 120 volt 20 amp branch circuit. If you use 14 Gauge wire protect it with a 15 amp breaker but if you use 12 gauge wire you can use a 20 amp breaker.

Inside such buildings I use 12/2 with Ground Romex for 20 amp branch circuits or 14/2 with Ground for 15 amp branch circuits. I DO NOT like to use the metallic outer cover for the Equipment GroundING Conductor !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I NEVER mixed lighting and convenience outlets on a single branch circuit. I used a branch circuit for lights and another for outlets etc and other non lighting loads.

A GOOD CLEAR INSIDE THE BOX PICTURE COULD HELP

Regardless, if you decide to update I suggest Hots and a Neutral and an Equipment GroundING Conductor be ran to that sub panel and it equipped with separate insulated and isolated Neutral and Ground Busses. If you dont update Hots and a Neutral will suffice IE not another separate Equipment GroundING Conductor

At that buildings electrical service I would bond to a Grounding Electrode such as a rod or rods driven into mother earth.

CAUTION anytime life or fire safety is concerned to be on the safe side and if any doubt exists I would consult with current practicing (NOT me Im retired) Electrical Engineers and professional electricians and any applicable codes and the local Utility AND DONT RISK YOUR LIFE OR A FIRE ON LAY OPINIONS mine included as Im too darn rusty and too long retired from power distribution design

John T

 

[DoubleO7]

It is amazing to me the responses of what you have there.

From zero info and a crappy picture of the outside of a now vintage breaker box.

 

[John T]

Ive been here like since the early nineties and can tell you anytime an electrical or legal question is asked there are more responses and opinions posted then to any other topic regardless how much information or lack thereof is originally posted. And being an electrical engineer as well as an attorney I post also and thoroughly enjoy reading all the comments

John T

 

[old]

On one like this one would almost have to be on site to either open up the box and look how the outlet is wired or use a VOM to check what the voltage is. No way with the info given to know the answer

 

[Stephen Newell]

Since now we know you are setting up a wood shop you need to see if your supply line is sufficient to the task. A couple of people have speculated that the box is being feed with a 10 gauge wire. That wouldn't be enough. That's only 30 amps of service.

 

[JDEM]

Maybe you are seeing something in the original post that I am not? RE the question . . "Is this box good enough to get some newer ,,and more regular outlets in the shed?"

From what I can see, the answer is YES. If it is 10 gauge wire, it would make a big difference if it is wired for 230 volts. Cannot tell without more info.

I have a four-bay garage and shop, and a 2nd separate garage with a 10/3 UF wire for a double-30 amp breaker controlling all the power to them. I plan on upgrading sometime, but so far all has been fine. I have a 3 HP compressor, 2 HP drill press, many lights, garage door openers, many outlets, plus a 230 volt-50 amp welder. Note that having a 50 amp welder on a 30 amp circuit certainly is not ideal. That said, so far I have never tripped the 30 amp breaker since my max welding has only been at 140 amps (225 amp max welder). I supposed if I had to use at the max setting the breaker would trip. I figure the welder at the 140 amp power level uses around 20 amps max at 230 volts.

 

[Stephen Newell]

He made another post in off topic showing the interior of the shed. He shows a wood bandsaw, table saw and an air compressor. If he was running a saw at night with the lights on and the compressor came on it would be too much.

 

[John T]

DITTO if we saw the inside or were there we could answer much better

John T

 

[dr sportster]

Larry , If you can pull the cover and photograph the feed and inside panel it would really ID what you have there . I think I see a bigger aluminum feed but not sure.

 

[old]

There is absolutely no way any of us can tell you what you have there. Only way to know if that outlet is 110 as it should be or 220 which it should not be is to open up the breaker box and see how it is wired and or use a VOM and check it. With electricity one should NEVER guess because that is a good way to end up 6 foot under. Wire gauge also says nothing because one can wire up any voltage with any gauge wire even if it is not correct and to code. When I wire something up if code calls for 14 gauge I use 12 and if code calls for 12 gauge I use 10 etc.

 

[JDEM]

Now I understand. I did not see the other post.

 

[buickanddeere]

I wonder why some people start a whole new post on an existing topic . Confuses everyone .

 

[buickanddeere]

First of all, get rid of the Zinsco panel before it burns down your shed . They are the only panel worse than a Federal Pacific .
As previously stated the shed panel must have a pair of local ground rods and the neutral bar isolated from the ground at the shed .
Who ever connected the receptacle and left that ugly loop of cable needs to be taken aside and tuned up.
Also as previously stated we need to know the cable and breaker on the supply side .

 

[larry@stinescorner]

thanks all,I will open up the cover and take more pictures