Propane Tractor - Tank Recertification? - Canada Only

[pinski]

Are there any propane experts from Canada on these forums? I have a 1965 MM M670 Super with a propane engine. The tractor has not been used in several years but was operational when parked. I am wanting to get it going again, but worried about the propane system. I know for portable propane cylinders they need to be recertified every 10 years in Canada. But I'm not sure about permanent, fixed tanks like these on tractors. Does anyone know the regulation in Canada? Any help would be good. Thanks

 

[Brown David]

Good question.

I don't know the answer but am interested in finding out.

That should apply to forklifts, motorhomes, etc. too I expect.

 

[DanielW]

Are there any propane experts from Canada on these forums? I have a 1965 MM M670 Super with a propane engine. The tractor has not been used in several years but was operational when parked. I am wanting to get it going again, but worried about the propane system. I know for portable propane cylinders they need to be recertified every 10 years in Canada. But I'm not sure about permanent, fixed tanks like these on tractors. Does anyone know the regulation in Canada? Any help would be good. Thanks

Theoretically, it needs to be certified for anywhere official to fill it. If, however, you add a liquid draw-off to a residential/house tank, you can fill it yourself. Or if you're only running it occasionally for fun and don't mind a little tedium when filling, you can fill with an adapter hose from 20/40# BBQ tanks flipped upside-down to get the liquid withdrawal. Unfortunately if using this method you won't be able to fill too much before the pressures equalize. It's really unfortunate that they make it such a pain: propane burns way cleaner and is far easier on engines. Tear down a propane engine and it'll probably look like new. But folks get all flamdoozled and we get excessive regulations because people see a propane tank on a vehicle and think you're re'creating the Manhattan project. In reality, most propane tanks out there (even the ones on these old tractors) are safer than many conventional gasoline tanks on vehicles, as long as the propane tanks aren't rusted out or bodged together.

If I were you, I'd be tempted to plan on using it and find a way of filling yourself - either from a large residential tank with a liquid draw-off added, or by transferring small amounts via the upside-down BBQ tank method. But I suppose that's not the kind of thing that should be recomended online. Do it at your own risk, and be sensible about it if any components look questionable.

You say you're in Canada? If you want to go the 'proper' route and you're in Ontario, maybe talk to the folks at Kiff Auto in Peterborough: they specialize in propane and natural gas vehicles and conversions, and they're quite friendly. But they will want you to do it the official way.

 

[DoubleO7]

What if you were to remove the existing tank and set in a BBQ tank?
Anchored with metal band straps or such with the BBQ hose adapted to the tractor end?

 

[wore out]

Are there any propane experts from Canada on these forums? I have a 1965 MM M670 Super with a propane engine. The tractor has not been used in several years but was operational when parked. I am wanting to get it going again, but worried about the propane system. I know for portable propane cylinders they need to be recertified every 10 years in Canada. But I'm not sure about permanent, fixed tanks like these on tractors. Does anyone know the regulation in Canada? Any help would be good. Thanks

You Canucks are an interesting bunch, legal medically-assisted suicide on one hand and worrying about a propane tank in an old tractor on the other!

NOT much the "nanny state" doesn't cover, I guess!

 

[BarnyardEngineering]

Are there any propane experts from Canada on these forums? I have a 1965 MM M670 Super with a propane engine. The tractor has not been used in several years but was operational when parked. I am wanting to get it going again, but worried about the propane system. I know for portable propane cylinders they need to be recertified every 10 years in Canada. But I'm not sure about permanent, fixed tanks like these on tractors. Does anyone know the regulation in Canada? Any help would be good. Thanks

I think your best chance of getting an answer is to call around to propane suppliers and ask. They should have the regulations handy and be able to tell you. Ask if they'll let you attach a liquid line to fill your tractor. Many suppliers won't.

Asking here, all you're going to get is made fun of for living in a "nanny state" even though your neighbors to the South have most of the same regulations when it comes to pressure vessels that hold volatile gases. Or, made fun of for "worrying."

 

[DanielW]

What if you were to remove the existing tank and set in a BBQ tank?
Anchored with metal band straps or such with the BBQ hose adapted to the tractor end?

The problem with a BBQ tank is you'd need to mount it upside down so you get a liquid draw-off, rather than the vapour from the top (like a BBQ uses). It can work, but apparently some BBQ tanks have valves that prevent them from discharging when upside-down, or else don't allow liquified propane to flow at the rates you'd need. There are certainly lots of folks who say they do it, however - search these and other forums and you'll find lots of ideas.

You can buy a 100# propane tanks at Home Hardware/Home Depot for a pretty reasonable and take it to the station to get it filled. I suspect if you mounted one of them upside-down they'd do just fine. But then you have this awkward, unsightly tank hanging off your snazzy-looking minnie-mil. Or you could look into LP forklift tanks. The only thing to make sure of is that they are true 'LP' (liquid propane) tanks, because a lot of forklifts these days use vapour, so the tanks draw off from the top rather than the liquid.

If you bought a 100# BBQ tank you could use it to fill your tractor's original tank, and probably get it full enough for several hours of work. There are lots of Youtube videos showing how to fill these old tractor tanks from a BBQ tank. I definitely wouldn't hesitate to use the tractor's original tank. As far as pressure goes, there are oodles of people every day using air compressors with much thinner walled tanks and rusted seams at higher pressures. As far as explosion/vapour leak issues are concerned, it really shouldn't be a worry: regular gas is just about as dangerous, and there are certainly loads of vehicles on the road with thin/rusted/leaking gas tanks in way worse condition than your propane tank will be.

Though I'm happy to be a Canadian, I'm inclined to agree with Wore-Out: some of our over-regulation up here is a tad ridiculous. I head to the Southern US for work pretty frequently and it's like a breath of fresh air - people are allowed to just do things normally. But then again, they don't have maple syrup at any of the breakfast joints down there, so I guess everywhere has their faults.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

Respond to a house explosion once and you will never look at the propane forklift the same again. A lot of hoops to jump through to fill a tractor most storage tanks around here are from the 60s and 70s so all the coops know what to do certification wise you would be dealing with the same thing most likely. Anhydrous tanks down here which are the same require more regular pressure testing than propane tanks about the only exception are the propane bottle trucks that travel down the road get hydro tested and all that which you might be closer to rule wise albeit I bet you don’t even have a 100 lbs tank on the tractor but Canada rules can’t help you with. One could probably purchase a forklift tank ready to go...

 

[Brown David]

You Canucks are an interesting bunch, legal medically-assisted suicide on one hand and worrying about a propane tank in an old tractor on the other!

NOT much the "nanny state" doesn't cover, I guess!

Tell you what, I'll take our systems over yours all day every day.

And that's as deep as I'll go on that subject.

 

[Fixingfarmer]

The problem with a BBQ tank is you'd need to mount it upside down so you get a liquid draw-off, rather than the vapour from the top (like a BBQ uses). It can work, but apparently some BBQ tanks have valves that prevent them from discharging when upside-down, or else don't allow liquified propane to flow at the rates you'd need. There are certainly lots of folks who say they do it, however - search these and other forums and you'll find lots of ideas.

You can buy a 100# propane tanks at Home Hardware/Home Depot for a pretty reasonable and take it to the station to get it filled. I suspect if you mounted one of them upside-down they'd do just fine. But then you have this awkward, unsightly tank hanging off your snazzy-looking minnie-mil. Or you could look into LP forklift tanks. The only thing to make sure of is that they are true 'LP' (liquid propane) tanks, because a lot of forklifts these days use vapour, so the tanks draw off from the top rather than the liquid.

If you bought a 100# BBQ tank you could use it to fill your tractor's original tank, and probably get it full enough for several hours of work. There are lots of Youtube videos showing how to fill these old tractor tanks from a BBQ tank. I definitely wouldn't hesitate to use the tractor's original tank. As far as pressure goes, there are oodles of people every day using air compressors with much thinner walled tanks and rusted seams at higher pressures. As far as explosion/vapour leak issues are concerned, it really shouldn't be a worry: regular gas is just about as dangerous, and there are certainly loads of vehicles on the road with thin/rusted/leaking gas tanks in way worse condition than your propane tank will be.

Though I'm happy to be a Canadian, I'm inclined to agree with Wore-Out: some of our over-regulation up here is a tad ridiculous. I head to the Southern US for work pretty frequently and it's like a breath of fresh air - people are allowed to just do things normally. But then again, they don't have maple syrup at any of the breakfast joints down there, so I guess everywhere has their faults.

What comes out the forklift tank is liquid. Take the line off one outside once it drips nice and cold plus it’s laying on its side there’s not much else can come out that valve. It’s only vapor when it gets kinda empty and the low fuel alarm has gone off from lack of pressure

 

[Nordic]

You may have your answer by now but automotive tanks here in Canada have no age limit. This includes anything with wheels basically. If the attendants are trained they will not turn down refilling such a tank. I have owned dump trucks, pickups, cars, forklifts on propane and you're good to go in Canada. That said, the responsibility of safety is on the owner on such vehicles or equipment. When you smell propane it is time for sober alert. I have had forklift equipment with stuck internal valves that kept pouring propane into my shop. In such cases w/o due care and attention you make the headline news. Shut-offs etc of various configurations can have slow leaks in time, even on automotive tanks. This is when you do a soap and brush test to find the bubbles. About twenty years ago my neighbour was removing an automotive tank from the trunk of a big Buick, when he pulled the trigger on his electric impact gun the collected propane fumes in the trunk exploded and sent him as a flying object into the air and he landed some distance behind the car. Thankfully he had a bystander that helped to manage the outcome and he did not sustain life threatening injuries himself.

 

[DanielW]

You may have your answer by now but automotive tanks here in Canada have no age limit. This includes anything with wheels basically. If the attendants are trained they will not turn down refilling such a tank. I have owned dump trucks, pickups, cars, forklifts on propane and you're good to go in Canada. That said, the responsibility of safety is on the owner on such vehicles or equipment. When you smell propane it is time for sober alert. I have had forklift equipment with stuck internal valves that kept pouring propane into my shop. In such cases w/o due care and attention you make the headline news. Shut-offs etc of various configurations can have slow leaks in time, even on automotive tanks. This is when you do a soap and brush test to find the bubbles. About twenty years ago my neighbour was removing an automotive tank from the trunk of a big Buick, when he pulled the trigger on his electric impact gun the collected propane fumes in the trunk exploded and sent him as a flying object into the air and he landed some distance behind the car. Thankfully he had a bystander that helped to manage the outcome and he did not sustain life threatening injuries himself.

Hmm, are you sure that automotive tanks don't have a limit in Canada? Does it vary by province? About a year and a half ago I got a lead on a mid-80's F350 with a 460 LP engine in it (central Ontario). It was in absolutely pristine condition. Very cheap, because the guy who had it left to him said to safety it and get it in his name, he'd need to upgrade tanks, lines, and converter, and it wasn't worth it to him. I talked to the folks at Kiff auto to find out what was necessary and what it would cost: They said the same thing: tank had to be hydrotested within the last few years and components tagged accordingly, and the cost of hydrotesting was usually more than a new tank (which wasn't too bad in price, but by the time you upgraded the other stuff it was a few thousand dollars).

But maybe that's just what's required to pass a safety, and then you're good evermore thereafter? So maybe it wouldn't matter for a tractor. Do filling stations look for the recertification tag? I didn't buy the truck, so I never found out. Really regret it now: even if I had to swap to GA gas manifold and put a car on it would have been a pretty sweet truck for a bargain price.

 

[Nordic]

Hmm, are you sure that automotive tanks don't have a limit in Canada? Does it vary by province? About a year and a half ago I got a lead on a mid-80's F350 with a 460 LP engine in it (central Ontario). It was in absolutely pristine condition. Very cheap, because the guy who had it left to him said to safety it and get it in his name, he'd need to upgrade tanks, lines, and converter, and it wasn't worth it to him. I talked to the folks at Kiff auto to find out what was necessary and what it would cost: They said the same thing: tank had to be hydrotested within the last few years and components tagged accordingly, and the cost of hydrotesting was usually more than a new tank (which wasn't too bad in price, but by the time you upgraded the other stuff it was a few thousand dollars).

But maybe that's just what's required to pass a safety, and then you're good evermore thereafter? So maybe it wouldn't matter for a tractor. Do filling stations look for the recertification tag? I didn't buy the truck, so I never found out. Really regret it now: even if I had to swap to GA gas manifold and put a car on it would have been a pretty sweet truck for a bargain price.

I can't of course claim that I know every rule that exists, however, my personal experience is only dealing with Alberta and BC but my understanding is that as long as you own and use your propane vehicle there is no re-certification. On two occasions I dealt with purchasing propane vehicles from Alberta to become registered in BC. The re-registry required nothing to do with the propane at the time, but with one truck having no '1075' sticker to identify fuel type of the vehicle, some gas stations were unwilling to fuel up the vehicle as that sticker verifies that the system installation had the approval of a certified inspector. I had the system examined by an inspector and once he installed one extra fitting on one of the tank valves, I was good to go and the '1075' sticker was put on my window. I'm not surprised if by now inter-provincial transfers of vehicles may well include system re-certification. The long and the short of it for me, having owned and operated propane vehicles for a bit short of 40 years, I have been told vehicle tanks require no re-certification. Anytime I bring my old forklift tank for re-fill they don't look for any dates or numbers they immediately proceed to fill it.

 

[buickanddeere]

What if you were to remove the existing tank and set in a BBQ tank?
Anchored with metal band straps or such with the BBQ hose adapted to the tractor end?

That would look like some farmer cobb job .

 

[DoubleO7]

That would look like some farmer cobb job .

So?

 

[buickanddeere]

So?

A sense of decency , honour and pride .