Q-for engine-man or others

[RandyB(MI)]

If the heat of high compression ignites diesel fuel when injected to create the power stroke in a diesel engine , then why couldn't you inject atomized water into an engine with sufficient compression creating enough heat to turn the water to steam instantly also creating a power stroke? The principle of a liquid changing to an expanding gas would be the same as injecting any other liquid fuel into a super-heated chamber of oxygen. We already know that steam will push a piston with a lot of force ,BUT, does it matter if it is already steam when it enters the cylinder or if the steam is created in the cylinder? We have already proven that we can creat heat without fuel through high compression. Heat and water make steam and steam is powerfull and emission free. So what is the problem here?? I know there are smarter people on here than me that can (and will) make me look real stupid for even asking this question. I'm up for it! Fire away. It's how we learn.

 

[Walt Davies]

The water will cool the engine enough that it won't run more a few turns before its to cold to work.

Walt
PS if you have something to heat the cylinder then it should work but then you are back to using fuel again.

 

[John S-B]

What are you going to do for energy to atomize the water? With steam, the energy has already been put into motion. By heating water in the cylinder, you have to convert energy to heat, the opposite of a steam powered cylinder.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Exactly what john s b said, what are you going to do to create heat in the first place to get it started, and second what is going to prevent the water from cooling the block off. I was always taught that water cooled down things, not heated them up.

 

[farmerjohninpa]

diesel motors run because the fuel they use is a "combustable" fuel. the pressure exerted on the atomized fuel in the cylinder by the piston causes a rapid rinse in temperature causing the fuel to ignite but under such pressure it is more liken to a "detonation", driving the piston down and thus rotateing the crank.
steam is atomized water built up to high pressure by the boiler where the steam is stored and fed to the pistons by valves and release valves to keep the 2-way piston in continuous motion. the water can not be built up in a piston and heated to steam fast enough to work, plus the loss of pressure on the piston would be so fast as it started to move that i would not have enough inertia to keep it moving.

 

[Anonymous-0]

Exactly.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I have a question for engine man only please. I think it may help. What do the letters on the oil pails mean mean? IE/ SAE, API and SH versus CD. I realize you could probably look it up but any mechanic should know this like the back of his hand. It's easy to have a little knowledge and seem smarter by agreeing with someone who obviously is. It will give some credibilty. Dave

 

[skycarp]

At sea level water boils at around 212 degrees F. Add pressure to the water and it will remain a liquid at even a higher temperature.

Water under pressure becomes denser, not as you ask, convert to steam (a less dense state). A pressure cooker actually keeps the water in a liquid state due to the added pressure above atmospheric pressure.

On a side note, if you want to see sudden energy release, heat and pressurize water, then release the pressure on the water all at once. NO, don't do it, take my word for it, it is a huge release of energy. The water converts to vapor at a ratio of 1700 to 1. That is a lot of space taken up all at once.

 

[farmerjohninpa]

i just remembered something,,,if you have the time to work on this,,,,you may be the next john paul getty !!
everyone has heard of the warning that goes with "microwave" ovens,,"super-heated" water that does not even steam!! it seems as though if the container that is holding the water in the oven is smooth enough and fault free you can try to heat water in a mic-wv in such a container and when you open the door there is no steam,,but once you move the container the water explodes in your face,,has severely burned many a people over the years. now if you can do this under a controlled envirement, then you have just introduced the 21st centurys verson of the steam engine. and i would appreciate you remembering me !! LOL

 

[Anonymous-0]

135Fan. don't forget OEP.
These Hydrogen cars that are starting to appear.Where does the fuel come from?? water is 1 Hydrogen to 2 Oxygen.
Somebody will make sure we can't put the garden hose in the tank.

 

[Anonymous-0]

I don't know about that but I'm only a welder. Hopefully engine man can help? Dave

 

[Haywood]

.

 

[T_Bone]

Hi B-manic,

Diesel is a heat engine design.

1st, liquids are not compressable. Only gases are compressable.

2nd, water= 144btu/lb, No2 diesel= 143000btu/lb

Now if you turn your water into a gas, hydrogen gas, then you can burn that in a current diesel engine design.

T_Bone

 

[MarkB_MI]

First, second and third laws of thermodynamics get in the way. Stated in gambling terms, they are:

1. You can't win.

2. You can't break even.

3. You can't get out of the game.

 

[farmer boy]

Water is actually 2 hydrogen and 1 oxygen H2O. This can actually work but not in the way described. Works like a normal engine but after the forth stroke it injects water and then pushes it back out and starts over with the intake of fuel. No water cooling either. It would freeze it colder climates and you couldn't use a heater core to heat your vehicle. Over all a very good idea.
6 cycle engine

 

[Janicholson]

Engine man will begin to answer real peoples questions soon! It is faith based.

Water is the ash from a hydrogen fire. The energy to compress it (and enough space with air in it to allow compression at all) like a diesel would do nothing to the compound. Heating even a thimble full of water takes far more heat than it does to heat the thimble. Specific heat of water is as standard for the concept of specific heat (at 1) Thus there would need to be drastic compression to get it to hot enough to be steam. Some of this energy would be able to push down on the piston, but the condensing upon expansion would pull much of it out. Vehicles with cylinder cutouts use the compression and rebound of air only to recapture a minor amount of energy while avoiding pumping losses some. (the reason the process is incremental not profound)
JimN

 

[MarkB_MI]

That's an interesting approach. The idea seems thermodynamically sound. A coal fired power plant is more efficient the cooler its condensor temperature is. He's extracting a little extra power by evaporating water using waste heat. However, I suspect his dynamometer results aren't showing an improvement, otherwise he would certainly be bragging about them. My guess is that the little extra power he's extracting is used up by the friction losses of the extra strokes. There are some practical issues, too: You can't cool the combustion chamber too much or your combustion efficiency will drop. Also, the need to carry water (presumably de-ionized) would make it a problem for vehicles.

 

[KEB1]

You need to look at this in terms of the total energy. The problem with simply injecting water is that you'll use more energy to compress (and heat) the air than you'll get back from the expansion of the steam, unless you add additional energy from somewhere.

Energy can be neither created (except in an atomic reaction where matter is converted to energy) nor destroyed, only changed from one form to another. Water injection adds power to engines because it takes some of the heat energy from combustion that would otherwise go out the exhaust and uses it to convert water to steam, increasing cylinder pressure.

Converting water to steam requires that the water absorb energy from somewhere. In your example, the energy needed to convert water to steam would come from the heat generated by compressing air in the cylinder, which in turn comes from the energy needed to rotate the crankshaft and push the piston up the cylinder, which in turn has to come from somewhere.

If there's nothing to add energy to the water, even though the cylinder may be hot enough to vaporize it, there'll be a net loss of energy in the form of heat passing to the cylinder wall and heat created by friction between moving parts. This energy can be added either internally, like a gas or diesel engine, or externally, like a steam engine.

Hopes this makes things a little more clear.

Keith

 

[Sean McDonnell]

I know that some Professional pullers do use water injection on diesel engines. The catch is that it's not just water alone. They add the water to the cumbustion chamber after the fuel is already burning. This does 2 things, if the quantity is adjusted correctly it turns to steam and increases HP, second it helps draw away heat to prevent melting of pistons. It works very well but generaly you have to be running a lot of boost and high fuel volumes to get a benefit from it. There are a few kits available for diesels in street trucks but i have always been too afraid of scattering my Powerstroke to try one.

 

[RodinNS]

The basic idea of water injection or these new 6 cycle engine designs is that the water is utilized to scavange waste heat that would otherwise be dissapated in some other form.... such as the cooling system, radiant or form oil cooling. The water captures the heat, expands as it vaporizes, and that expansion energy is captured by the piston.
The key is that there needs to be heat energy from some other source to make the steam.
What I read about the new 6 strok concept is that it is so efficient that it eliminates the need for a conventional cooling system. THat would be a gain of somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30-35 percent in thermal efficiency. That's not a bad number! It might hold some promise if they can figure out a way to make it practical.... so that the water doesn't freeze in the tank.

Rod

 

[RandyB(MI)]

Thank you for all your replies. I knew there were some pretty smart people out there. I guess my point is that we just can't wait any longer for "THEM" to figure something out because "THEM" are making billions with the status quo. Maybe there is an element we haven't discovered yet that would act as a catylist to react when water is introduced to create steam at a rate to power an engine. Look at what raw gas does when it enters a catylic converter. Chemical reaction creates energy where there wasnt any to begin with. I think it can hapen with something besides fossil fuels. Thanks again for not jumping on the "make him look stupid" train.