rare 9n on eBay

[markct]

I saw this 9n on eBay and am curious if it's as rare as the seller says or just a jumble of parts painted up. Says it has the rare single headlight? Yup I got a tractor like that too after the other fell off. And 32 inch rear tires is new to me I always thought they were all 28? Just some things that had me curious and figured those here would know better
9n

 

[Royse]

The early tractors did have 32 inch tires and rims.
A lot of the rest sounds like smoke and mirrors.
A division of Ferguson?

Headlights were dealer or owner installed options.
I suppose a guy could have saved money by having
the dealer install just one but I cannot say for sure.
It's a great looking tractor but not a $5500 tractor to me.

 

[old]

32 inch tires where an option on the 9N and not all that uncommon. Sounds like another one of those people that do not have a clue. H-Cooke has 2 or 3 9Ns with 32 inch tires on the back. I sold him one a few years ago that had 32 inch rears and who ever fixed a hat rim problem by putting cement in the hat part of it

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

Well, I see a few things that are not original to the early 9N. First, what the heck is the Ferguson Division??? Sorry, no such thing. It was the Ford 9N Tractor with Ferguson System -official name. Ferguson worked for FORD until he went behind Fords' back to start his own tractor in 1946, actually started shopping around earlier than that. Secondly, that headlight is not an original CM HALL one. HALL was the only approved vendor Ford used in their lighting kits until Ford started supplying lights as well. Additionally, lighting kits were sold by dealers as options, never factory installed accessories. There would also be a winged medallion for the light. Ads for the lights say that if one wished to use a worklight, you would take a headlight and mount it to the rear fender bracket -you did not choose a kit with one or two headlights, kits came with two headlights. Funny how rumors get passed down. The old, "...well that's what the previous seller/owner told me. The tractor came with it when he bought it so it must be original...". Next, the fenders are not the early double-ribbed style. It does show an early generator, appearing to be the 9N-10000-B correct unit, one-wire/two brush type using the round-can cutout, but the pulley is a newer aftermarket type. I can't tell by his pictures and I do not see the square voltage regulator that was used on the early 9N-A generator, so... . The starter button is moved from the dash to the top of trans shift cover -that would correct, but the battery/fuel access door is hinged and has the latch -that is NOT correct. The key switch is moved from the right dash to the lower left dash ?correct. The radiator cap should be the chrome Stant one used on the early non-pressurized radiator system but I can't tell if that has been switched as well. If it is the original, it wouldn't be painted. The smooth rear axle hubs are correct as well as the 32" hat rims and newer tires both front and rear are OK. It is showing a newer type fuel sediment valve/bowl as well instead of the hard to find brass original one. The 4-spoke steering and the aluminum horizontal bar grille are most likely the newer repop ones, but that is OK if they are. The muffler shield is correct as are the I-beam style radius rods. The front spindle Zerk fittings are on the front -also correct. I won't ask the seller these questions because he obviously doesn't know and I don't have any interest in buying it anyway. I guess I am nit-picking, but that is how I am when it comes to originality on the early N?s. Plus, if someone is interested, and they don?t know, these facts can help them in haggling the price over with the seller. But because of these flaws, I'd offer about 3K tops for it after factoring in all the hassles of dealing with Canadian seller.


[i:654c4848f0][b:654c4848f0]<font size="4">Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)</font>[/b:654c4848f0][/i:654c4848f0]<table width="100" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" bordercolor="#000000"><tr><td height="25" colspan="2" bgcolor="#CC0000">

<font color="#FFFFFF" size="3">*9N653I* & *8NI55I3*</font>​

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[Royse]

"Ferguson worked for FORD until he went behind Fords' back to start his own tractor in 1946"

I'm not sure that part is right Tim.
Ferguson built his "black tractor" to put the Ferguson system on in 1933.

Black Tractor

 

[tractorguy2]

I think the first 9n's did have 32 inch tire option. I'm guessing the light was added by a tight wad farmer who didn't want to spend enough money to buy two. I'm guessing the light is on the right side for plowing.

I have a 9n. I know my lights are not original. The fronts have a weird cast iron bracket on a home made steal plate. My rear work light is on the right fender has a tag that reads "Busy Bee" The light all work and I really don't care if my tractor is 100% original.

 

[markct]

Thanks for the detailed list, i have no interest in buying it either, and agree its way overpriced, but i was just wondering the truth of these "rare features" so i didnt go on believing and passing on bad info as well!

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 19:02:33 01/11/16) "Ferguson worked for FORD until he went behind Fords' back to start his own tractor in 1946"

I'm not sure that part is right Tim.
Ferguson built his "black tractor" to put the Ferguson system on in 1933.

Black Tractor

Henry and Harry were partners. Ferguson had a well established history of designing and building tractors long before he partnered with Ford. The partnership began when Ferguson brought HIS tractor to Ford. Ford wanted Harry's tractor and Harry wanted Ford's extremely cost effective mass production capabilities.
[i:3d071a46c5]
[b:3d071a46c5][color=red:3d071a46c5]In October 1938, [u:3d071a46c5]Ferguson demonstrated his[/u:3d071a46c5] latest tractor to Henry Ford at Dearborn, and they made the famous "handshake agreement".[/color:3d071a46c5][/b:3d071a46c5] Ferguson took with him his latest patents covering future improvements to the Ferguson tractor and it is these that led to the Ford-Ferguson 9N introduced to the world on 29 June 1939. The 1938 agreement intended that the Ferguson tractor should also be made in the UK at the Ford Ltd factory at Dagenham, Essex but Ford did not have full control at Dagenham and, while Ford Ltd did import US-made 9N/2Ns, Dagenham did not make any.[/i:3d071a46c5]

But the partnership was short lived. Disagreements over patents and production ultimately led to a split and Ferguson went back to making his tractors in England. Ford is no longer in the tractor business but Massey Ferguson lives on ;-)

TOH

 

[Maineman]

"Ferguson worked for FORD until he went behind Fords' back to start his own tractor in 1946, actually started shopping around earlier than that."
Harry Furguson never worked for Ford.
It was a business partnership. The famous "handshake deal".
Harry Ferguson would design and market the tractor and Ford would build it. Furguson had the same arrangement with David Brown before that.
Furguson also designed and sourced all the attachments. When Henry died, the bankers came in and did the numbers, when they saw how much money the lost on every tractor, they broke off the deal. Furguson had no tractors and Ford had no distribution network or attachements to sell!
Ferguson went to standard motors in England and had the TE-20 made and imported to the US.
Ford infringed on Ferguson's patents. A lawsuit followed. Ferguson won! Something like $250,000,000

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

who do you think paid Fergusons salary???

 

[Ken N Tx]

Early lighting kit states that one headlight can be removed and mounted on the rear fender..

 

[Tim PloughNman Daley]

HiYa Royse-
According to Harold Brock, Harry Ferguson was asked by Henry Ford to join the Ford staff and be a consultant on the new tractor Ford was designing after Ford engineers scrutinized the 1936 Ferguson-Brown Type A (Black) Tractor and he agreed, which became the handshake agreement. I guess it's how you look at it. Yeah, I know about the Ferguson-Brown partnership, but before that, Ferguson's Duplex hitch was made exclusively for the Fordson tractor -before the 3-point system, and prior to that the Eros conversion for the Model T. Like I said, who paid Fergusons' salary? The handshake agreement made Ford the manufacturer and Ferguson the distributor. So we could go on discussing who worked for who, but without Ford, Ferguson had nothing, and to some extent, vice versa. Ferguson was a shrewd businessman, not an engineer. The 3-point design was the brainstorm of Archie Greer, John Chambers, and Willie Sands. Ferguson just had the balls to put patents on the stuff in his name as Ford had no interest in patents nor any use for lawyers. That handshake agreement would come back to bite Ford in the arse and today would not hold up in court. Don't get me wrong -I like both Ford and Ferguson tractors. In my opinion, the biggest mistake Ford made in the 9N design was not listening to Ferguson who wanted an overhead valve engine with a 4-speed transmission. These features are what spurred Harry to go out and seek his own manufacturer. So, let the rebuttals begin...

Tim

 

[Walston]

It would be nice to know the serial number.

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 07:30:16 01/12/16) HiYa Royse-
According to Harold Brock, Harry Ferguson was asked by Henry Ford to join the Ford staff and be a consultant on the new tractor Ford was designing after Ford engineers scrutinized the 1936 Ferguson-Brown Type A (Black) Tractor and he agreed, which became the handshake agreement. I guess it's how you look at it. Yeah, I know about the Ferguson-Brown partnership, but before that, Ferguson's Duplex hitch was made exclusively for the Fordson tractor -before the 3-point system, and prior to that the Eros conversion for the Model T. Like I said, who paid Fergusons' salary? The handshake agreement made Ford the manufacturer and Ferguson the distributor. So we could go on discussing who worked for who, but without Ford, Ferguson had nothing, and to some extent, vice versa. Ferguson was a shrewd businessman, not an engineer. The 3-point design was the brainstorm of Archie Greer, John Chambers, and Willie Sands. Ferguson just had the balls to put patents on the stuff in his name as Ford had no interest in patents nor any use for lawyers. That handshake agreement would come back to bite Ford in the arse and today would not hold up in court. Don't get me wrong -I like both Ford and Ferguson tractors. In my opinion, the biggest mistake Ford made in the 9N design was not listening to Ferguson who wanted an overhead valve engine with a 4-speed transmission. These features are what spurred Harry to go out and seek his own manufacturer. So, let the rebuttals begin...

Tim

Here is my take.

In addition to marketing and distribution rights for the new tractor Ford gave Ferguson managerial control of the new tractor development project. In Harold Brock's own words: "Sheldrick was informed that Ferguson would oversee Ford's product engineering activity and have final approval of the new concept". Harry Ferguson brought HIS Model A and 3pt implement blueprints to Ford engineering and they were incorporated into the new tractor and implement designs. It's no surprise the 9N came out looking an awful lot like the Ferguson-Brown Model A it was modeled after.

Harold Brock's belief that Ferguson later stole Ford's intellectual property by absconding with a copy of the 9N blueprints is a serious stretch. After Henry Ford's death Ford was having serious profitabilty issues and management wanted to raise the production price they were charging Ferguson. That is what sent Ferguson looking for a new manufacturer. When Ford continued to produce and distribute the tractors themselves Ferguson filed a breach of contract and IP infringement lawsuit against Ford. Because of the verbal nature of the original "handshake agreement" the case dragged on until 1952 when it was finally settled. By thT TIME Ferguson had succeeded at independent production which lead the court to dismiss his claim for damages but it did award him 9.25M in royalties for Ford's continued use of his IP in their new 8N tractor. The court also ordered Ford to modify it's tractor design to avoid any further infringement of Ferguson's hydraulic system patents. Enter the NAA with live hydraulics.

TOH

[size=24:a6dd3f016a]1935 Ferguson-Brown Model A Tractor - Serial Number 500[/size:a6dd3f016a]

 

[hd6gtom]

In the 22 years I put on farm tires, I only put on 1 set of 32" rears on a ford. I thought it was strange, but I was in a book store in the Amana colonies later that year, found a book on early ford tractors. It state the first year or 2 they put 32" rubber on them, but with the low hp of the motor they decided the 28" were a better fit.

 

[Walston]

The SN is 9N26554

 

[ericlb]

the seller has a nice tractor but not something rare, the 32 s were an option, the n series didnt start the ford tractor, ol Henry was experimenting with building a tractor on his place in 1904, the N was the first to use the 3 point hitch thanks to a partnership with Ferguson, it also made this one of the few tractors that was affordable to the average farmer, when ford designed the 8n he revamped the hydraulic lift and thought it was different enough to warrant letting Ferguson out of the deal, Ferguson, and the courts thought otherwise, and ford had to choke up 9 million dollars, for patent infringement, im sure that money helped finance the Ferguson 20, an almost exact looking copy of the n, just practically no parts interchanged other than the wheels

 

[old]

Ya and just think what $14.50 was back in say 1939. In those days that was like giving and arm and leg for something

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 15:17:09 01/12/16) the courts thought otherwise, and ford had to choke up 9 million dollars, for patent infringement, im sure that money helped finance the Ferguson 20, an almost exact looking copy of the n, just practically no parts interchanged other than the wheels

While I am sure it was a welcome infusion of cash the $9M came way to late to help Ferguson restart. By 1952 Ferguson in collaboration with Standard Motors had produced 60,000 TO-20's, and 48,000 TE-20's and the TE-20 was already out of production.

The final year for the TE-20 was 1948 when the TEA-20 went into production using the new Standard motor. A little over 500,000 TEA-20's were produced.

In the US the start of TO-20 production in Ferguson's new Detroit assembly plant using the Continental Z120 engine coincided with the end of TE-20 production in England and continued through 1951 when the Z129 engine was adopted and it was redesignated as the TO-30. Production of the TO-30 continued thru 1954 and 140,000 units ere produced.

Production of both lines ended with the introduction of the new TO-35 in 1954 (Detroit) and the FE-35 in 1956 (Coventry).

TOH

 

[ASEguy]

That is a great picture. Makes me want to have a seat by an old stove with a good cup of coffee.

 

[Steve Dabrowski]

As in all things the item is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It depends on how many 1940 9N's are out there for sale and how bad someone wants one-timing and luck are a big factor. This one is a reasonable candidate for restoration, but it probably would not be significantly less expensive to restore than a rusty one found in a yard. The sheet metal is straight, but the paint is a poor job and just shot all over including the radiator hose-that all has to come off. Has smooth hubs and a B generator. Engine condition and other mechanicals would factor in, but figure a ground up restoration, with first class paint and sheet metal and a few rare parts would likely add up to about $8-$10K if you do most of the mechanical yourself. A good engine and mechanicals that do not need work would subtract a substantial amount from that and may make it worth the money. Keep in mind Roger Forst who had his first class 39 9N fully restored for sale for around $7.5K had difficulty finding a buyer.

 

[Benj R]

My take. With out Harry Ferguson there would be no 9n 2n or 8n tractor as we know them today. I
personally am glad Harry and Henry got together to make the tractor they did, and the tractors that
followed after the split were pretty nice too,from both divisions. Ford did build an all Ford
tractor in the Ferguson years in the U.K.

 

[rdandersom]

There was something else I read somewhere that Ferguson felt he was shut out of the British market because the Fordson board of directors refused to work with him partly because he was a commoner and they were all peers. They wanted to keep producing obsolete Fordsons. WW2 starting in 39 also meant that there could be no retooling so Fordsons were produced even after the war. Harry couldn't really have done much in the world market without an ally in Britain. Remember at that time the sun never set on the empire.