Rear split for pto shaft extraction

[Billybuck]

Having owned this 49 8N for over 30 yrs and never having to split it, Ive been lucky, and my luck has run out. Being unable to engage the pto or to remove the pto shaft, I pulled the lift cover. The shaft is stuck in the support sleeve (possibly the pump cam also). Im taking the tractor to a heated shop with concrete floor next week planning a rear split. A number of questions..
Once split, should I try to drive the shaft out of the sleeve from the countershaft end with a piece of bar stock, risking damage to the bearing snap rings etc., and not knowing if the shaft might also but lodged in the pump cam, potentially damaging that as well. Or plan to cut the shaft in the pump just behind the cam without the attempted shaft hammering? Maybe try it without too much vigor?
If I cut the shaft behind the cam and remove the pto shaft portion behind that, will I be able to unbolt the pto support and remove the pump, remaining portion of the shaft and support still connected at the sleeve, out through the pump hole in the bottom of the center housing? Or will I need to cut the shaft a second time?
Once removed Ill use a hydraulic press to extract the shaft from the sleeve and cam ( if necessary).
With coupler removed, I plan on using a sawzall with carbide tipped blades (and oil). I cant see a better way since I dont know if the shaft splines are free in the pump cam.
Any input welcomed.

 

[tugman]

I just finished my 49 8n pump rebuild but didn't have the issues you are having, shaft slid right out and right back in.
I removed the 4 bolts in the bearing retainer and pulled everything out in one shot.
Someone else on here just had your same issue and I believe they cut the shaft, I think their post was titled "pto shaft stuck" .
Look back on here a couple weeks ago it should be easy to find, or do a search.
I for one would avoid hammering anything out, too much damage could in most all probability result, best of luck to you.
Can you see the spline well enough to reach down to it and maybe try to move it a tad to feel if there's a burr on it or wiggle it while someone pulls or works the shaft around ?

 

[tugman]

Found it
https://forums.yesterdaystractors.com/viewtopic.php?t=1460617

Good luck

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 03:52:59 12/03/20) I just finished my 49 8n pump rebuild but didn't have the issues you are having, shaft slid right out and right back in.
I removed the 4 bolts in the bearing retainer and pulled everything out in one shot.
Someone else on here just had your same issue and I believe they cut the shaft, I think their post was titled "pto shaft stuck" .
Look back on here a couple weeks ago it should be easy to find, or do a search.
I for one would avoid hammering anything out, too much damage could in most all probability result, best of luck to you.
Can you see the spline well enough to reach down to it and maybe try to move it a tad to feel if there's a burr on it or wiggle it while someone pulls or works the shaft around ?

I think I found the post to which you referred titled Cutting the PTO Shaft. Thank you. Since Im splitting the tractor to remove the main shaft coupler for a clear shot from above and can reach the shaft with a long blade, in the pump and behind the cam, there should be nothing preventing removal of the portion of shaft from there to the rear end. What I dont know from the replies on the post you referenced, is whether the inability to remove the pump with the remaining shaft stub is prevented by the stub not being able to clear the support sleeve or due solely to its length. Im hoping the former, and that by detaching the pto support, the acquired angle allows removal of the pump, stub and support as a unit.
Since my shaft is stuck in the sleeve the support will have to be removed either way (unless I can tap it free), so I can try it and if unsuccessful, reattach the support and make a second cut in the tractor forward of the pump. It wont be fun regardless.

 

[kfnut]

I've have never had this problem so my suggestion may be off base . You could try a slide hammer . A few bumps may get you there.

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 13:55:52 12/03/20) I've have never had this problem so my suggestion may be off base . You could try a slide hammer . A few bumps may get you there.

Thanks. I cant think of a way for a slide hammer to hold inside the pto sleeve to hammer it forward off of the pto shaft or to connect it to the back end of the pto shaft to hammer to the rear. Suspect taps from the front end will be about all I can do.

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 02:04:56 12/03/20) Having owned this 49 8N for over 30 yrs and never having to split it, Ive been lucky, and my luck has run out. Being unable to engage the pto or to remove the pto shaft, I pulled the lift cover. The shaft is stuck in the support sleeve (possibly the pump cam also). Im taking the tractor to a heated shop with concrete floor next week planning a rear split. A number of questions..
Once split, should I try to drive the shaft out of the sleeve from the countershaft end with a piece of bar stock, risking damage to the bearing snap rings etc., and not knowing if the shaft might also but lodged in the pump cam, potentially damaging that as well. Or plan to cut the shaft in the pump just behind the cam without the attempted shaft hammering? Maybe try it without too much vigor?
If I cut the shaft behind the cam and remove the pto shaft portion behind that, will I be able to unbolt the pto support and remove the pump, remaining portion of the shaft and support still connected at the sleeve, out through the pump hole in the bottom of the center housing? Or will I need to cut the shaft a second time?
Once removed Ill use a hydraulic press to extract the shaft from the sleeve and cam ( if necessary).
With coupler removed, I plan on using a sawzall with carbide tipped blades (and oil). I cant see a better way since I dont know if the shaft splines are free in the pump cam.
Any input welcomed.

Was just studying this again and measuring for saw blades. The location of my planned first cut of the shaft is actually in the pump but forward of the cam. If it isnt twisted in the cam I should be able to extract the back portion of the pto shaft and perhaps the pump, then pull the support and stub. If twisted in the cam, a second cut behind the pump will be necessary.
Anyone know if the main shaft behind the coupler protrudes too far to get a sawzall in there meaning only angle for attack is through the inspection plate?

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 12:24:33 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 02:04:56 12/03/20) Having owned this 49 8N for over 30 yrs and never having to split it, Ive been lucky, and my luck has run out. Being unable to engage the pto or to remove the pto shaft, I pulled the lift cover. The shaft is stuck in the support sleeve (possibly the pump cam also). Im taking the tractor to a heated shop with concrete floor next week planning a rear split. A number of questions..
Once split, should I try to drive the shaft out of the sleeve from the countershaft end with a piece of bar stock, risking damage to the bearing snap rings etc., and not knowing if the shaft might also but lodged in the pump cam, potentially damaging that as well. Or plan to cut the shaft in the pump just behind the cam without the attempted shaft hammering? Maybe try it without too much vigor?
If I cut the shaft behind the cam and remove the pto shaft portion behind that, will I be able to unbolt the pto support and remove the pump, remaining portion of the shaft and support still connected at the sleeve, out through the pump hole in the bottom of the center housing? Or will I need to cut the shaft a second time?
Once removed Ill use a hydraulic press to extract the shaft from the sleeve and cam ( if necessary).
With coupler removed, I plan on using a sawzall with carbide tipped blades (and oil). I cant see a better way since I dont know if the shaft splines are free in the pump cam.
Any input welcomed.

Was just studying this again and measuring for saw blades. The location of my planned first cut of the shaft is actually in the pump but forward of the cam. If it isnt twisted in the cam I should be able to extract the back portion of the pto shaft and perhaps the pump, then pull the support and stub. If twisted in the cam, a second cut behind the pump will be necessary.
Anyone know if the main shaft behind the coupler protrudes too far to get a sawzall in there meaning only angle for attack is through the inspection plate?

The [u:5a0b929d24]transmission mainshaft[/u:5a0b929d24] extends 2" beyond the machined face of the transmission case.

TOH

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 17:50:08 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 12:24:33 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 02:04:56 12/03/20) Having owned this 49 8N for over 30 yrs and never having to split it, Ive been lucky, and my luck has run out. Being unable to engage the pto or to remove the pto shaft, I pulled the lift cover. The shaft is stuck in the support sleeve (possibly the pump cam also). Im taking the tractor to a heated shop with concrete floor next week planning a rear split. A number of questions..
Once split, should I try to drive the shaft out of the sleeve from the countershaft end with a piece of bar stock, risking damage to the bearing snap rings etc., and not knowing if the shaft might also but lodged in the pump cam, potentially damaging that as well. Or plan to cut the shaft in the pump just behind the cam without the attempted shaft hammering? Maybe try it without too much vigor?
If I cut the shaft behind the cam and remove the pto shaft portion behind that, will I be able to unbolt the pto support and remove the pump, remaining portion of the shaft and support still connected at the sleeve, out through the pump hole in the bottom of the center housing? Or will I need to cut the shaft a second time?
Once removed Ill use a hydraulic press to extract the shaft from the sleeve and cam ( if necessary).
With coupler removed, I plan on using a sawzall with carbide tipped blades (and oil). I cant see a better way since I dont know if the shaft splines are free in the pump cam.
Any input welcomed.

Was just studying this again and measuring for saw blades. The location of my planned first cut of the shaft is actually in the pump but forward of the cam. If it isnt twisted in the cam I should be able to extract the back portion of the pto shaft and perhaps the pump, then pull the support and stub. If twisted in the cam, a second cut behind the pump will be necessary.
Anyone know if the main shaft behind the coupler protrudes too far to get a sawzall in there meaning only angle for attack is through the inspection plate?

The [u:d299109bba]transmission mainshaft[/u:d299109bba] extends 2" beyond the machined face of the transmission case.

TOH - Im splitting at center housing so was wondering about length from the rear end (back end, coupler removed). Thats where I need access to cut the shaft behind the pump, if you know that length? Thanks!

TOH

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 13:03:46 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 17:50:08 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 12:24:33 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 02:04:56 12/03/20) Having owned this 49 8N for over 30 yrs and never having to split it, Ive been lucky, and my luck has run out. Being unable to engage the pto or to remove the pto shaft, I pulled the lift cover. The shaft is stuck in the support sleeve (possibly the pump cam also). Im taking the tractor to a heated shop with concrete floor next week planning a rear split. A number of questions..
Once split, should I try to drive the shaft out of the sleeve from the countershaft end with a piece of bar stock, risking damage to the bearing snap rings etc., and not knowing if the shaft might also but lodged in the pump cam, potentially damaging that as well. Or plan to cut the shaft in the pump just behind the cam without the attempted shaft hammering? Maybe try it without too much vigor?
If I cut the shaft behind the cam and remove the pto shaft portion behind that, will I be able to unbolt the pto support and remove the pump, remaining portion of the shaft and support still connected at the sleeve, out through the pump hole in the bottom of the center housing? Or will I need to cut the shaft a second time?
Once removed Ill use a hydraulic press to extract the shaft from the sleeve and cam ( if necessary).
With coupler removed, I plan on using a sawzall with carbide tipped blades (and oil). I cant see a better way since I dont know if the shaft splines are free in the pump cam.
Any input welcomed.

Was just studying this again and measuring for saw blades. The location of my planned first cut of the shaft is actually in the pump but forward of the cam. If it isnt twisted in the cam I should be able to extract the back portion of the pto shaft and perhaps the pump, then pull the support and stub. If twisted in the cam, a second cut behind the pump will be necessary.
Anyone know if the main shaft behind the coupler protrudes too far to get a sawzall in there meaning only angle for attack is through the inspection plate?

The [u:379c72eb93]transmission mainshaft[/u:379c72eb93] extends 2" beyond the machined face of the transmission case.

TOH - Im splitting at center housing so was wondering about length from the rear end (back end, coupler removed). Thats where I need access to cut the shaft behind the pump, if you know that length? Thanks!

TOH

/quote]

Too many ambiguous antecedents in that description to understand what you are asking about. I take it you have removed teh center housing from the transmssion as in thispoicture?

TOH

 

[TheOldHokie]

(quoted from post at 13:03:46 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 17:50:08 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 12:24:33 12/03/20)

(quoted from post at 02:04:56 12/03/20) Having owned this 49 8N for over 30 yrs and never having to split it, Ive been lucky, and my luck has run out. Being unable to engage the pto or to remove the pto shaft, I pulled the lift cover. The shaft is stuck in the support sleeve (possibly the pump cam also). Im taking the tractor to a heated shop with concrete floor next week planning a rear split. A number of questions..
Once split, should I try to drive the shaft out of the sleeve from the countershaft end with a piece of bar stock, risking damage to the bearing snap rings etc., and not knowing if the shaft might also but lodged in the pump cam, potentially damaging that as well. Or plan to cut the shaft in the pump just behind the cam without the attempted shaft hammering? Maybe try it without too much vigor?
If I cut the shaft behind the cam and remove the pto shaft portion behind that, will I be able to unbolt the pto support and remove the pump, remaining portion of the shaft and support still connected at the sleeve, out through the pump hole in the bottom of the center housing? Or will I need to cut the shaft a second time?
Once removed Ill use a hydraulic press to extract the shaft from the sleeve and cam ( if necessary).
With coupler removed, I plan on using a sawzall with carbide tipped blades (and oil). I cant see a better way since I dont know if the shaft splines are free in the pump cam.
Any input welcomed.

Was just studying this again and measuring for saw blades. The location of my planned first cut of the shaft is actually in the pump but forward of the cam. If it isnt twisted in the cam I should be able to extract the back portion of the pto shaft and perhaps the pump, then pull the support and stub. If twisted in the cam, a second cut behind the pump will be necessary.
Anyone know if the main shaft behind the coupler protrudes too far to get a sawzall in there meaning only angle for attack is through the inspection plate?

The [u:cb23009d38]transmission mainshaft[/u:cb23009d38] extends 2" beyond the machined face of the transmission case.

TOH - Im splitting at center housing so was wondering about length from the rear end (back end, coupler removed). Thats where I need access to cut the shaft behind the pump, if you know that length? Thanks!

TOH

/quote]

Is this your concern? If so the pinion shaft extends 2" which is beyond teh back edge of teh pump housing. A sawzall inserted through the inspection port is an easy hit on the PTO shaft but an 8: blade would be helpfull.

TOH

 

[TheOldHokie]

Sorry - didn't get the image with the post

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 20:37:26 12/03/20)
Sorry - didn't get the image with the post

This last picture is what I was looking for, Thanks. If I have to cut behind the pump looks like side inspection plate it will be. Got 12 8tpi. Pricy but hopefully worth it. Probably need to pull fender to operate the saw. Thanks again.

 

[Gaspump]

Some may be removed with a strong snapping pull. Before getting too drastic and over killing the problem try jerking the unfastened shaft out with a chain. Use a chain about 5/16" X 20' attach it to the shaft
by placing a bolt or pin thru the shaft and attaching the chain around the shaft ahead of the bolt/pin. Stand straight back holding the chain at the far end, snug up the chain then let it sag a bit then
sharply snap the chain tight so as to jerk the shaft out. Might take a couple of tries and it may work without cutting or separating anything.

 

[lha]

I've used that tactic for pulling rear axles from my trucks to change bearings and seals. It works very well.

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 18:00:41 12/04/20) Some may be removed with a strong snapping pull. Before getting too drastic and over killing the problem try jerking the unfastened shaft out with a chain. Use a chain about 5/16" X 20' attach it to the shaft
by placing a bolt or pin thru the shaft and attaching the chain around the shaft ahead of the bolt/pin. Stand straight back holding the chain at the far end, snug up the chain then let it sag a bit then
sharply snap the chain tight so as to jerk the shaft out. Might take a couple of tries and it may work without cutting or separating anything.

/
Gotta remove the over running coupler anyway and hydraulic oils out so might as well give it a try. Why/how does it work?

 

[lha]

The way I used a similar method to remove axles is to attach one end of the chain to the axle[or PTO shaft] and the other to a
tree or truck bumper with some slack,then use it to snap like a slide hammer by lifting and dropping the chain. Your results
may vary.

 

[Billybuck]

I tried the chain method on a stuck ball hitch on my old pickup. It didnt work but I could tell it was putting a pretty good snatch on it when done just right. Couplers off and friend stopping by to help me roll it to get the 20 chain shot.

 

[Abbby]

I just got done doing this. Split the tractor and drove it out with a large punch and large hammer. I tried the slide hammer method and no go. It took significant hammering to drive it out. Figured the pump would be damaged but not the case. Put in the new shaft and pump works just fine.

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 05:01:18 12/06/20) I just got done doing this. Split the tractor and drove it out with a large punch and large hammer. I tried the slide hammer method and no go. It took significant hammering to drive it out. Figured the pump would be damaged but not the case. Put in the new shaft and pump works just fine.

Abbby- was your shaft lodged in the sleeve like mine or just the pump? Guessing when stuck in the pump you were striking the punch inside the center housing after removing the pto support? You didnt have to cut the shaft?

 

[Abbby]

Best of knowledge mine was not stuck in the sleeve. I split the tractor for the main reason of getting the shaft out. I did not cut the PTO shaft but just drove it through the pump with a punch and hammer. I know some will say you should not do that. I know better but once you start tapping next thing you are swinging hard to get it done. I have had tractor for over 30 years and pump never worked on. So if I damaged it oh well. Main reason I pulled cuz I am getting older and if do need to work on the pump down the road I would not have to deal with the PTO shaft. Pump works just fine.

 

[Billybuck]

(quoted from post at 19:54:24 12/06/20) Best of knowledge mine was not stuck in the sleeve. I split the tractor for the main reason of getting the shaft out. I did not cut the PTO shaft but just drove it through the pump with a punch and hammer. I know some will say you should not do that. I know better but once you start tapping next thing you are swinging hard to get it done. I have had tractor for over 30 years and pump never worked on. So if I damaged it oh well. Main reason I pulled cuz I am getting older and if do need to work on the pump down the road I would not have to deal with the PTO shaft. Pump works just fine.

I see. Looking at it again there isnt enough room for a hammer to drive from inside the housing so have to drive through the support from outside front of housing. I tried the chain snatch suggested above without success. Gonna go out and try that a bit more, then button up the pto, add oil, and move her out by the lane to load on a trailer in the AM. Thanks